First Horizontal? Mazak Mori? Makino?

My company is looking to purchase our first horizontal machining center. I do know price isn't a huge concern with in reason (~350K). We are buying the machine outright and will only be running one job on the machine which consist of one assembly and the ten machine parts in the assembly.

Material- 6061-T6, Torlon (glass filled plastic) and 6AL4V Titanium

Any most have options? I plan on getting 100+ tool changer, Through spindle coolant, laser tool breakage protection

We are currently a Mazak only shop but I didn't want that to influence my decision. I wanted to hear what Practical Machinist has to say

We are currently use NX 8.5 and Mazatrol for programming

Here are the following options I have looking at:

Mazak

HCN 4000-III

Mori Seki

NHX-4000

Makino

A51nx

(I haven't contacted any salesmen yet because I don't want them calling me everyday)

A51nx. Makino has thier USA headquarters in Ohio, and has a facility in Michigan. So that being said support would probably be best.

Husker

huskermcdoogle said:

A51nx. Makino has thier USA headquarters in Ohio, and has a facility in Michigan. So that being said support would probably be best.

Husker

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As does Mazak (well, technically Florence, Ky, but it's a mile or so to Ohio).

You have no bad choices between the 3 you are looking at - any of those machines will give you years of service and excellent work. This decision really comes down to what they are offering for the price. - LOOK CAREFULLY! MTB sales folks and brochures are very good at highlighting strengths and hiding weaknesses. Make sure you are comparing apples to apples as they make it VERY difficult to do so with published information.

In your situation, you must consider commonality since you have one type of machine already. Spare parts, maintenance familiarity and control familiarity should play some role in the decision. How much depends on your own circumstances. The best thing is to set up a decision matrix and list all the things you need / want in the machine, down to the very specifics. (Horsepower, torque curve, travels, rapids, max feeds, indexing or 0.001° 4th, control type, spare parts availability, T-T change and C-C times, max 4th RPM, machine area required, options, etc) be very specific! Include other less technical aspects also (reputation of the vendor, price, service, etc) The technical info is the area where you may have to call and get info as it all won't be in the brochures.

Set up a spreadsheet with all this listed down the left. Put the machines across the top with a scoring column next to it. Fill in the blocks for each machine as to does it meet your requirements. (on edit - I background color my blocks - 1) Red - Does not meet requirement, 2) Yellow - Can meet requirement, but is an option or can do so at added cost, 3) Green - Meets or exceeds requirements.) Then set up a 1-5 scoring system. Grade each item yourself. Then send the blank (no grades or machines listed) to 3 of your trusted folks who are familiar with the situation and your company and needs. Let them grade the importance of each item on the list via the 1-5 scale.

Average the answers from the 3 trusted folks for each item. This is your "factor". Multiply your score by the "factor" then sum the result from each vertical column. This will give each machine a score. (This method will also eliminate any machine that doesn't meet your specifications.)

I love the no nonsense, logic based decision making approach Tony talks about... Appeals to the engineer in me. People let emotions make decisions far more than they acknowledge.

Matsuura is also worth considering, depending on service in your area.

Our first horizontal is currently on order. I narrowed down the choices to a Mori NH4000 and a Matsuura 405. I ultimately bought the latter. Although you spend a bit more, I believe you get much more machine for your money. I paid considerably more than $350k, the only machine in that price range that I even considered was a Mori NHX4000.

The Mori nhx4000 was under 300k with a full 4th...I got my nh5000 for a bit over 325....I guess the salesmen was right when he said I got a killer deal

You have worked there for a year or so and they are trusting you to buy a horizontal? Lol

dstryr said:

The Mori nhx4000 was under 300k with a full 4th...I got my nh5000 for a bit over 325....I guess the salesmen was right when he said I got a killer deal

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An NH5000 for $325k is a great deal for sure. I don't have any idea of your options package, but big tool magazines and pallet systems add big money quick with any vendor.

Moriboy said:

An NH5000 for $325k is a great deal for sure. I don't have any idea of your options package, but big tool magazines and pallet systems add big money quick with any vendor.

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Big tool magazines (wine rack) used to be well over a 150k option.

We have an NHX4000 and are pleased with it. MMS wrote an article about us a few months ago with some info and pics of the machine. It was published in the March 2013 print issue: Cramming for Competitiveness : Modern Machine Shop

The control behind the MAPPS IV interface is a Mitsubishi and comes standard with a lot of features that may be options on other controls, e.g. tool load monitoring / tool life management, ethernet, 100+ MB extra on-board program memory that runs through DNC, etc. When pricing out the other machines on your list, be sure add control/software options in addition to hardware options.

One of our neighboring shops has two NH6300s and two NHX4000s. One of the NHX4000s has a 120ATC and a 5-pallet RPP (round pallet pool) and runs nothing but aluminum castings. The RPP is a really economical way to get a pallet system right from the get-go. The Makino is a killer machine, but I suspect a well-optioned A51 with 2 pallets will be in the same ballpark as an NHX with similar options plus a 5-RPP.

I'd also look at Kitamura. They make some nice iron.

barbter said:

To be honest, if you're a mazak only shop and will only be running the one project, I'd go with a mazak.
You should have a good relationship with the existing sales and (most importantly) service guys, and even more important to that there will be familiarity of the control, which should allow more operators to cover/use the machine.

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I do have a good relationship with service tech(s). I don't mind learning a new control (honestly you learn one control and the rest are easy) and I will be the only one setting/running/programming up the machine for quite awhile.

Plus, our shop looks pretty new cool with only mazaks in it. (like that matters much)

dstryr said:

You have worked there for a year or so and they are trusting you to buy a horizontal? Lol

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Yea.. I make all the major machining decisions now. When I first got here we brought a new QTN-100 without "y axis" I told them we needed a lathe with "y axis" for the type of work we do. They didn't want to listen to the new guy. Every time we have some BS 2nd operation on the mil.. I bring it up "You know if we got the machine with the y axis these part would be done already" ( we have to much work to wait for the other lathe to open)

NX 8.5- That was all me... I showed them a quick demo of me doing some programming and They immediately noticed how much time it will save and the doors it will open. The hardest part was finding a software package I liked and sorting through the salesmen BS.

Orange Vise said:

We have an NHX4000 and are pleased with it. MMS wrote an article about us a few months ago with some info and pics of the machine. It was published in the March 2013 print issue: Cramming for Competitiveness : Modern Machine Shop

The control behind the MAPPS IV interface is a Mitsubishi and comes standard with a lot of features that may be options on other controls, e.g. tool load monitoring / tool life management, ethernet, 100+ MB extra on-board program memory that runs through DNC, etc. When pricing out the other machines on your list, be sure add control/software options in addition to hardware options.

One of our neighboring shops has two NH6300s and two NHX4000s. One of the NHX4000s has a 120ATC and a 5-pallet RPP (round pallet pool) and runs nothing but aluminum castings. The RPP is a really economical way to get a pallet system right from the get-go. The Makino is a killer machine, but I suspect a well-optioned A51 with 2 pallets will be in the same ballpark as an NHX with similar options plus a 5-RPP.

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I thought you guys had Mori from the demo Orange Vise video. I do remember I read that article about Orange Vise.

I wanted to add a couple things the price isn't firm. My decision will be the deciding the factor. We could end up running other jobs on the machine down the road. I would like to stick to the three options I have listed.

Sounds like I need to call some salesmen and get some real literature to further decide on which route to do.

You may already know but, make sure you consider the support your distributor will give in regards to complimentary equipment. Ask them what else you will need to buy/ implement to be really successful with the piece of equipment. The machine, especially a horizontal, can be a turd bomb if the other support equipment isn't there. If they say "just buy the machine and you'll be fine" or don't give much advice I'd steer clear.

If you are a mazak shop I would stick with them. It isn't like the case if you were a Haas shop and looking for a horizontal. The Mori NHX is a great machine but IDK how much I would like the Mit. controller. I've heard from some of the Ellison techs the new nhx4000's can come with Siemens controls if you want one...I would look at those if we were going to get another one but I really like the fanuc 31i on the nh5000

dstryr said:

If you are a mazak shop I would stick with them. It isn't like the case if you were a Haas shop and looking for a horizontal.

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^^^This^^^

Moriboy said:

Our first horizontal is currently on order. I narrowed down the choices to a Mori NH4000 and a Matsuura 405. I ultimately bought the latter. Although you spend a bit more, I believe you get much more machine for your money. I paid considerably more than $350k, the only machine in that price range that I even considered was a Mori NHX4000.

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Would you mind explaining, in some detail, what made the Matsuura "more machine for the money?" I'm genuinley curious, and don't hear too often from people with Matsuura machines.

As stated, all three machines are good. I bought all three at one time or another and have worked with all of them. My least favorite is the Mazak. I don't like having that tool file to worry about. Mazak just seem to be different from most other controllers to make it non-user friendly. (but that's my opinion) The Mori-Seiki's are really good machines. I had Mori's in service for over fifteen years with no issues what so ever (MH-63 & SH-400). But the last machine I bought was a Makino A81. The Makino is definetly the cadalac of the machines. One of the reasons I went with the makino was the stiffness of the Y axis. Look how the two ways are built on the machine. I was also able to do power point presentations for set-up sheets and get all paperwork off the shop floor. The Makino has a built in power point viewer that allows you to show power point presentations right on the machines CRT. Also, the Makino does not use way oil and therefore your coolant has less contamination. Another nice thing on the Makino is that one push of a button will bring the spindle right to the operator door making it a lot easier to service your cutting tools.

We have 4 of the mori's mentioned in the OP. 1 has a pallet pool. when we first got into horizaontal machining centers here, they bought a couple kitamuras. not a bad machine but after getting our first mori we havent contemplated another horizontal mfg company. These machines are hardly ever down and they make a great part. high pressure thru spindle coolant with your expectations of machining ti. we run chip blaster systems. worth checking out.

The nice thing about pallet pools is the ability to run unattended...one more thing you may want to check out. good luck

paboy said:

Also, the Makino does not use way oil and therefore your coolant has less contamination. Another nice thing on the Makino is that one push of a button will bring the spindle right to the operator door making it a lot easier to service your cutting tools.

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I think the mori got away from way oil as well. Our NH uses hydraulic oil. Also my ellison tech setup a custom M100 code to bring the spindle next to the operator door as well.