Fadal 88HS 4020 Startup Problem
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  1. #1
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    Default Fadal 88HS 4020 Startup Problem

    My Fadal 4020 is not fully starting. I get an error that scrolls on the screen continuously as soon as I hit the CNC Start button.
    The message is: Clear an Emergency Stop Condition - Press the jog Key to reset the emergency stop - Axis Controller does not respond to NC. Pressing any of the keys on the pendant keyboard has no effect on the message - it just keeps scrolling. I checked 3 phase voltages and all 3 legs are 240V inside the external disconnect and at the lugs inside the cabinet.

    The machine is a 1994 Fadal 4020 DC machine with extended Z, 4th axis and the 88HS control
    I've jumpered out the part of the E-stop circuit that allows the control to put the machine in emergency stop (per the treoubleshooting section of the manual)by placing a jumper from F16 to F12. With the jumper in place, I now have 120V in most places on Board 1100-1, and when I hit the e-stop, the voltage drops back down to approx 16V. The maintenance manual describes the E-Stop circuit as pulling the voltage down to 0V or something close to it, so I think that's the behaviour I'm seeing. I now have 120V along the e-stop circuit all the way to TB-1-10 on the 1100-1 board. As I read the circuit, the K-1 and K-2 relays should now feed TB-1-09 with 120V, but they don't. I tried swapping the K-1 and K-2 relays with some chosen at random from 1100-2 but there was no change in behaviour. I'm stumped / beat. Hopefully somebody can suggest the next thing to test / look at / try to understand. Thanks in advance.
    img_3859.jpgimg_3913.jpge-stop-circuit.jpgk2-relay.jpg

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    Check the drives to see if they are powering up correctly. Should be just above the board in pic 2. If not, try power down, press e-stop, then main power on. Let it set for a few minutes. Control power on and pull e-stop out. I have had a problem with mine before. Seems like a capacitor drained or something. The e-stop doesn't allow the drives to power up right away, and lets everything get up to voltage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chad883 View Post
    Check the drives to see if they are powering up correctly. Should be just above the board in pic 2. If not, try power down, press e-stop, then main power on. Let it set for a few minutes. Control power on and pull e-stop out. I have had a problem with mine before. Seems like a capacitor drained or something. The e-stop doesn't allow the drives to power up right away, and lets everything get up to voltage.
    I'll try starting it with the e-stop pressed and waiting a few minutes. I've have tried starting it with the e-stop pressed, but I've never allowed it to sit for a while.
    For what it's worth, I can't measure any charge on the single large capacitor (blue) in that same cabinet, either across the two terminals, or from one terminal to ground. I have to admit that big capacitors scare the crap out of me.
    The DC Power Supply right above the 1100-1B Board is producing +12V, -12V and 5V DC power. big-cap.jpgdc-power-supply.jpg

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    Try unseating/reseating some cards? It works with my Fadal and my Nintendo, both are similar vintage. Ha

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cole2534 View Post
    Try unseating/reseating some cards? It works with my Fadal and my Nintendo, both are similar vintage. Ha
    Thanks Chad883 and Cole2534 for the responses.
    I turned on the main braker with the e-stop pushed in, waited 20 mins and hit the green CNC start button. Got the same scrolling message.
    After 5 mins I released the e-stop and hit the Jog button on the keyboard.
    The scrolling message temporarily stopped, at least one axis moved, but then the same message started scrolling again. That's the most action I've seen so far since this issue started.
    I pushed the e-stop back in and will wait for 30 mins before trying again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cole2534 View Post
    Try unseating/reseating some cards? It works with my Fadal and my Nintendo, both are similar vintage. Ha
    I did try unseating / reseating all of the axis cards, CPU card etc, with no obvious change in behaviour, before I started the machine up.
    Is it worth pullig the cards out and cleaning the contacts where they seat into the backplane board?

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    After hitting the e-stop and leaving it 30 minutes, I'm no further ahead.
    I shut it off, with the e-stop pressed and re-stated the machine, but did not hit the CNC start button. I'll try that in 30 minutes or so.

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    It still won't clear the error. Releasing the e-stop and hitting the jog button causes something to happen (sounds like an axis initialization), but then the scrolling message continues.
    Can anyone provide any ideas I should check / do / try?

    Thanks in advance
    Martin

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    Quote Originally Posted by martinberryman View Post
    It still won't clear the error. Releasing the e-stop and hitting the jog button causes something to happen (sounds like an axis initialization), but then the scrolling message continues.
    Can anyone provide any ideas I should check / do / try?

    Thanks in advance
    Martin
    Did you look at the troubleshooting flowchart in the manual? Not sure the solution is there, but it would be worth a look

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    Quote Originally Posted by triumph406 View Post
    Did you look at the troubleshooting flowchart in the manual? Not sure the solution is there, but it would be worth a look
    Thanks for the suggestion.
    I did look at the flowcharts before posting here, but in all honesty, some of the instructions that simply say to test a component assume a better understanding of electronics than I possess.

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    I misspoke. The machine is a 1996, not 1994.

    The maintenance manual has a listing of error codes, and one of them is titled: Axis Controller does not respond during power up sequence: This is an indication that there is a communication problem between the CPU (1400) board and the axis controller (1010). Note error number and call the service department.

    Given that the error I'm getting is different, it seems somewhat unlikely it's related, but at this point I'm grasping at straws...

    I've pulled out the 1400-4 CPU Card and it has a Tadiran High Energy Lithium Battery on board (same format as a AA cell). It is marked as 3.6 Volts, but measures a confusing -0.1V measuring across the soldered-on leads that go to the board (The positive terminal is marked). Is that indicative that it needs to be replaced?

    It also has a Fadal 1460-2A Ram Expansion daughter board that says PCB-0041 RAM Expansion 384K on the label. Should I pull that off for testing purposes? I've seen other threads where it is recommended to remove any RAM expansion modules prior to troubleshooting. My concern would be damaging pins removing and replacing the board, although it looks to have two fairly robust connectors similar to an IDE cable port for an old hard drive.
    Last edited by martinberryman; 07-03-2021 at 03:00 PM. Reason: Noted error message in manual

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    I replaced the battery on the CPU board, removed the memory expansion, and cleaned the contact blades that plug into (what I call) the backplane board. I also pulled out the 4th axis feedback plug in the ceiling of the enclosure and used contact cleaner on the pins, and replaced it.
    I have power at 1100-1 TB1-8, so I think (emphasis on think) that K2 on the 1100-1 board is pulling in the NO contacts between terminals 12 and 8, but I don't get why power is not flowing between pins 13 and 14 of the K-1 and K02 relays to provide power at 1100-1 TB1-9.

    Looks like I'll need to bring in an electronics wizard, before I let the expensive smoke out of something important.
    Thaks for the suggestions, I'll report back what gets figured out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by martinberryman View Post
    I replaced the battery on the CPU board, removed the memory expansion, and cleaned the contact blades that plug into (what I call) the backplane board. I also pulled out the 4th axis feedback plug in the ceiling of the enclosure and used contact cleaner on the pins, and replaced it.
    I have power at 1100-1 TB1-8, so I think (emphasis on think) that K2 on the 1100-1 board is pulling in the NO contacts between terminals 12 and 8, but I don't get why power is not flowing between pins 13 and 14 of the K-1 and K02 relays to provide power at 1100-1 TB1-9.

    Looks like I'll need to bring in an electronics wizard, before I let the expensive smoke out of something important.
    Thaks for the suggestions, I'll report back what gets figured out.
    was this machine running and just quit? or were you replacing something?
    also go into you parms and disengage the 4th axis drive, then try it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Delw View Post
    was this machine running and just quit? or were you replacing something?
    also go into you parms and disengage the 4th axis drive, then try it.
    Thanks for the reply Delw - any thoughts are appreciated.
    The machine was running in exactly this configuration (before I added the jumper and the new parameter battery). Everything worked when I shut it off two weeks before turning it on and immediately getting the scrolling message. I've owned the machine for a year and a half and it has always started fine, although at one point it sat without power for 6 weeks and I did have to re-enter the parameters. It's been working fine since then and I start it weekly and run the coolant for a while, whether I need the machine or not.
    At this point I can't get control over the display to go into the parameters. As soon as I hit the Start CNC button, I get the continuously scrolling message.

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    Quote Originally Posted by martinberryman View Post
    Thanks for the reply Delw - any thoughts are appreciated.
    The machine was running in exactly this configuration (before I added the jumper and the new parameter battery). Everything worked when I shut it off two weeks before turning it on and immediately getting the scrolling message. I've owned the machine for a year and a half and it has always started fine, although at one point it sat without power for 6 weeks and I did have to re-enter the parameters. It's been working fine since then and I start it weekly and run the coolant for a while, whether I need the machine or not.
    At this point I can't get control over the display to go into the parameters. As soon as I hit the Start CNC button, I get the continuously scrolling message.
    With your e-stop in your screen should still boot up, I am pretty sure. I'll double check if I go in today.
    I have the exact same machine year and everything (no 4th), my other 2000 fadal I can turn the control on as well.

    e-stop just disconnects the drives.
    turn machine on
    DONT hit the green Start button in the back.
    Turn control on
    go to prms.

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    Thanks Delw
    I had no idea you could do that!
    How would you wake-up the control without hitting the green CNC Start Button?
    As far as I knew, my screen just presents a message saying cable is not connected (I'd never looked at it closely, and thought is was a Fadal logo) that appears to be a screen saver (moves around on the screen) until I hit the green start button.
    Much appreciated.
    Martin

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    Sorry I mis spoke.

    hit your e-stop button.
    then turn power off

    wait a few mins turn power on
    HIT green energize button.
    If your e stop button is pressed in it wont energize the drives but will open the control
    hit space bar to enter next comand
    type setp
    that will give you your prm screen.

    make sure that jumper is out of your estop that you put in.

    I'll upload some pics.
    this is what it will look like when the control turns on in e-stop
    img_2809aa.jpg

    type setp and hit enter to this screen
    img_2810aa.jpg

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    Thanks Delw,
    Even with the e-stop pressed (jumper or no jumper), the scrolling message appears. I can't interrupt it for more than a few milliseconds, no matter what I try.
    I really appreciate you posting the details and screenshots - unfortunately, I can't get there from here.
    Martin

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    Quote Originally Posted by martinberryman View Post
    Thanks Delw,
    Even with the e-stop pressed (jumper or no jumper), the scrolling message appears. I can't interrupt it for more than a few milliseconds, no matter what I try.
    I really appreciate you posting the details and screenshots - unfortunately, I can't get there from here.
    Martin
    I am assuming your machine was put back to normal before you tried it?
    what this more than likely means is your energize circuit to your control board is screwed up. like its sticking, or you could have a power supply screwing up. If I get a chance I'll look at some prints. more than likely a relay in there not making good contact.
    you could start looking at the green energizer button and see if thats sticking. Mind you I'm just guessing as thats were I would start looking




    it shouldn't be a drive/motor/cable issue because your e stop was pressed

    edit ******* just for shits and giggles unplug your keyboard and try it again*********

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    Quote Originally Posted by Delw View Post
    I am assuming your machine was put back to normal before you tried it?
    what this more than likely means is your energize circuit to your control board is screwed up. like its sticking, or you could have a power supply screwing up. If I get a chance I'll look at some prints. more than likely a relay in there not making good contact.
    you could start looking at the green energizer button and see if thats sticking. Mind you I'm just guessing as thats were I would start looking




    it shouldn't be a drive/motor/cable issue because your e stop was pressed

    edit ******* just for shits and giggles unplug your keyboard and try it again*********

    heres the e-stop electrics
    https://www.fadalcnc.com/media/pdf/t...C_Controls.pdf


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