Fadal Woes: "Axis Controller Does Not Respond to NC"

When powering up my VMC3016, I get the "Axis controller does not respond to NC" message on the screen. Hitting the JOG button pauses the screen momentarily, but after a few seconds, the same alarm comes back, rolling from bottom to top.

The machine is not specifying 'which' axis is not responding!

I checked the infamous "home computer" power supply, and the +12V, -12V, and +5V all are right on the money.

Incoming 3-phase AC is on the money, as is high voltages downstream from the built-in transformer.

All fuses are good. I also swapped around the "domino-looking" (per Bobw terminology) relays, to no avail.

A Google search reveals it could be a problem with one of the axis communication cards. My machine has 1010-5A cards. All have the red LED blinking constantly.

OK, so if it is one of these cards, how the hell do I know which one?

Any other ideas??

Thanks in advance,

ToolCat Greg

I haven't experienced that one yet. You probably already know about this company FadalCNC.com

I have found them to be helpful. YMMV

http://www.*******.com/forums/fadal/39484-cnc.html

Note the jog axis bit.

EDIT: Yeah, the old SEE AND SEE ZONE BS.

Can you get into the diagnostics?

DI

G0 3000

If you can then run the axis card tests to see if it can show you which one isn't talking.

I'm not able to get into diagnostics.

When you turn the machine on, the control just constantly scrolls, with the "axis controller..." and "clear emergency stop" alarms.

On all four 1010-5A boards, all I'm getting is flashing red LED's near the bottom of the boards. It's as if one bad 1010 board is taking them all down at startup? Or possibly something else, maybe the motherboard?

Like I say, the power supply is right on the money with all the DC voltages.

I've currently got calls in with a couple of the aftermarket Fadal parts/service companies, I will report back with what we come up with.

ToolCat

Completely off the subject, but while waiting to hear back, do you know who the shop at 24401 Regal Drive in Abingdon was? Got an email for online auction of this shop.

cnctoolcat said:

I'm not able to get into diagnostics.

When you turn the machine on, the control just constantly scrolls, with the "axis controller..." and "clear emergency stop" alarms.

On all four 1010-5A boards, all I'm getting is flashing red LED's near the bottom of the boards. It's as if one bad 1010 board is taking them all down at startup? Or possibly something else, maybe the motherboard?

Like I say, the power supply is right on the money with all the DC voltages.

I've currently got calls in with a couple of the aftermarket Fadal parts/service companies, I will report back with what we come up with.

ToolCat

Click to expand...

Does it scoll the error message even if you leave the Estop pushed?

Does it scoll the error message even if you leave the Estop pushed?

Click to expand...

Pressing the Estop makes no difference, the screen continues to roll.

The servo drives themselves aren't lighting up in any way, just the 1010 cards with the blinking red LED's.

Fadal Woes: "Axis Controller Does Not Respond to NC"

Completely off the subject, but while waiting to hear back, do you know who the shop at 24401 Regal Drive in Abingdon was? Got an email for online auction of this shop.

Click to expand...

Yes, that is a good friend's shop that has closed down. Started by his dad around 1990, they had a good run, but with virtually all of their business tied to the coal industry, they slowly bled out.

It sucks for me as well, as I did most of their "tricky" parts since 1998. Probably about 10% of my business....

They really pushed the 7 Mazaks they had, and like most shops maintenance consisted of fixing something only when it broke down.

I'm gonna bid on a few little items I can use, but simply have no floorspace (or need) for any extra cnc's.

I am going by Monday, and would be glad to inspect an item or two for friends here.

Not full -in depth CNC machine inspections though! [emoji16]

ToolCat

Try popping each axis board out of the card cage, one at a time, to see if the behavior stops on one.

I've had that pop up before, and I've fixed it... I can't for the life of me remember HOW I fixed it, or if it stopped all on its own....

I've had power supply's on the machine a couple of times that were just fine on the voltage, but they simply WOULD NOT run the machine..
I know there is that AC ripple thing that can really screw things up, but I've never found a good way to measure it, probably need an
oscilloscope or something.

If you aren't set up to swap your power supply in 30 seconds, I'd start with the basics.. Boards seated, no loose wires, maybe pull the
boards and hit them with a shot of contact cleaner.. Obviously, breakers and fuses, but you already knew that.

good luck, its something stupid, it almost always is.

I'm voting power supply.. 99% of all stupid Fadal errors come back to the power supply... Especially if you have a newer PC supply on there..
On one machine, I gave up on the PC power supplys and bought that new one they have, its about $250 to $275 and instantly cured months of stupid
errors..

The power supply that caused this checked out fine(ish) also. A tick low on the +12v... 11.86v. Other times I'd fire it up, it either
wouldn't fire up, or it was different errors, and occasionally garbage on the screen, though this was the prettiest garbage I had seen,
which is why I took a pic. Others times it would just fire up and run for a few weeks.

Fadal Woes: "Axis Controller Does Not Respond to NC"

Bob,

Now that you mention it, I do remember the +12v outputs measuring around 11.8v or so....just a tad low.

Now for 99.9% of applications, a measurement that close to nominal would be fine.

But, for shits and giggles, I'm going to scrounge up a PC power supply here at the house tonight, and put it in the machine tomorrow to try.

ToolCat

cnctoolcat said:

Bob,

Now that you mention it, I do remember the +12v outputs measuring around 11.8v or so....just a tad low.

Now for 99.9% of applications, a measurement that close to nominal would be fine.

But, for shits and giggles, I'm going to scrounge up a PC power supply here at the house tonight, and put it in the machine tomorrow to try.

ToolCat

Click to expand...

Give it a shot... The Fadal's are REALLY sensitive to that +12v... The crappy part, newer PC supplies aren't as good with the +12V as
the old ones were... You are going to pull a switching power supply (most likely) out of less than 15 year old PC.. You will need to jumper
it to actually turn it on.. The single green wire to one of the black wires.

The owner at KTR up in Colorado gave me a good schooling on the phone a few months ago.. Tech support, low voltage, he baby stepped through a bunch
of stuff, and taught me a bunch of stuff that I didn't know.... First... The newer PC power supplies are pretty shitty.... +12V VERY sensitive...

Either the power supply is shit... Its more probable than not... Or you are drawing down somewhere... Apparently.. And I didn't know this... With
age, either due to corrosion or some other stuff, they will start pulling more voltage.... Combine that with shitter PC power supplies and its a
Fadal disaster in the making.

Trying to find out what was causing me to be down in the 11.8ish range 11.75 some days, random variations other days....
11.6 to 11.96 Pulled all the boards and did the contact cleaner thing on
them.. Ran great for a few weeks, I went up to 11.96ish... And then it died again.. Contact cleaner didn't do it the next time, and I tried 6 different
PC power supplies... I even did the space heater and fan thing, warm it up and dry it out... Just in case. I even dropped the tap on the tansformer, get
a few more AC volts into the power supply, that didn't help either. Plugged the power supply into the wall, and that didn't help either.

What is drawing it down? Push the E-stop... WITH POWER OFF!!!! Pull all your boards except for the 3 connected by that little bridge.
The machine will fire up... Don't even look at the pendant... VOLTAGES.. I don't even remember what I was at, but it was 12.4 or 12.6...
Power down.. Slide in a board.. Measure the voltage again... Record... See what each board is pulling the voltage down... Some are obviously
going to be more than others... I didn't find anything obvious.. Even checked on my other machine which was running fine, and each board was
within .02 volts draw down, machine to machine.

That board pulling stuff didn't help me, but it might help you pin point a problem..

I said screw it and bought the new fangled power supply.. 12.0something volts rock solid and steady, and we're off and running...

I hope that helps you get a little closer to making chips again.

Fadal Woes: "Axis Controller Does Not Respond to NC"

Thanks for your help Bob, it is much appreciated. Hopefully I can return the favor if your trusty 'ol Mazak ever goes down.

I will just go ahead and order the right power supply, it's the cheapest thing to try anyway.

From what I've read the 1010-( ) boards have been known to fail. The prices for those vary wildly from about $300 to 1200, most around 500.

I did learn that not just any revision 1010- board will work. The revision of your main board determines which 1010-'s will work.

ToolCat Greg

cnctoolcat said:

Thanks for your help Bob, it is much appreciated. Hopefully I can return the favor if your trusty 'ol Mazak ever goes down.

I will just go ahead and order the right power supply, it's the cheapest thing to try anyway.

From what I've read the 1010-( ) boards have been known to fail. The prices for those vary wildly from about $300 to 1200, most around 500.

I did learn that not just any revision 1010- board will work. The revision of your main board determines which 1010-'s will work.

ToolCat Greg

Click to expand...

Yeah, the suffix on the boards must match, pretty much all the boards are like that. Video, CPU, and Axis.

That's why the cheapest solution for me is to live with the -0 boards I have

The next cheapest solution is to retrofit a Centroid/Ajaxcnc control to it.

Cheapest thing to try is to pop out all the boards and re-seat them. Worked for me. Good luck.

Fadal Woes: "Axis Controller Does Not Respond to NC"

Well I tried a PC power supply, still no dice.

I do have a new power supply on order from ITSCNC.COM (one of the original Fadal owners I believe, and the factory authorized CNC board shop since '92). Since the original ps is almost 20 years old, it's a good preventative measure, even if it don't fix the machine.

And like BobW says, Fadals are very sensitive to power supply issues - even with good voltage measurements, the "AC ripple" crap can still cause it not to work. (What the hell is up with that anyway?)

After more reading, since the alarms are on all the axis',it very well could a problem with the K20 relay, which is part of the emergency stop circuit. I will investigate that further on Monday.

One thing I did learn about my machine is that the factory installed the WRONG type of CNC power-on button! I had always wondered why the control powered up immediately when the main disconnect was turned on, and it turns out the green CNC power button is normally closed, instead of normally open!!

Which means pressing the button does absolutely nothing, as it actually opens the 120volt starting circuit for the power supply, rather than closing it.

Not really a big deal mind you, except the "brown-out" circuit is worthless, as the CNC would instantly power back up after a power blip, rather than the operator having to press the green power-on button again.

I ordered a 22mm normally open momentary pushbutton switch - with green button, off EBay to correct that factory screwup.

I have read about a couple other guy's machines powering up the CNC as soon as the main disconnect is turned on, so it appears Fadal screwed up more than just my machine at the factory.

Will report back on my findings....

ToolCat

cnctoolcat said:

Well I tried a PC power supply, still no dice.

I do have a new power supply on order from ITSCNC.COM (one of the original Fadal owners I believe, and the factory authorized CNC board shop since '92). Since the original ps is almost 20 years old, it's a good preventative measure, even if it don't fix the machine.

And like BobW says, Fadals are very sensitive to power supply issues - even with good voltage measurements, the "AC ripple" crap can still cause it not to work. (What the hell is up with that anyway?)

After more reading, since the alarms are on all the axis',it very well could a problem with the K20 relay, which is part of the emergency stop circuit. I will investigate that further on Monday.

One thing I did learn about my machine is that the factory installed the WRONG type of CNC power-on button! I had always wondered why the control powered up immediately when the main disconnect was turned on, and it turns out the green CNC power button is normally closed, instead of normally open!!

Which means pressing the button does absolutely nothing, as it actually opens the 120volt starting circuit for the power supply, rather than closing it.

Not really a big deal mind you, except the "brown-out" circuit is worthless, as the CNC would instantly power back up after a power blip, rather than the operator having to press the green power-on button again.

I ordered a 22mm normally open momentary pushbutton switch - with green button, off EBay to correct that factory screwup.

I have read about a couple other guy's machines powering up the CNC as soon as the main disconnect is turned on, so it appears Fadal screwed up more than just my machine at the factory.

Will report back on my findings....

ToolCat

Click to expand...

My older control powers up with main power, no "on" switch. The 1180 (IIRC) is the main power sequencer that is responsible for all of this. Perhaps yours is bad and things are not powering up in proper sequence?

AC ripple will affect your control boards more as they get older because the capacitors on the control boards are drying out, making them more sensitive to poor power quality. It might be time to re-cap your control boards.

The later stuff should be more sensitive than the early stuff, because they run at higher frequencies and timing is much tighter for everything.

The basic power up sequence is not controlled by a board, at least not in any fancy way...

You push the BIG GREEN BUTTON!!!

That sends 120AC directly to the power supply... The power supply then supplies +12,-12 and +5 volts.. The +12 (I think) kicks the relay
on your 1220 board (right next to the power supply) which then allows 120v AC to run to your power supply without pushing the button...

Line power dies, the 120v to the power supply dies, the +12v DC dies, the relay opens and the power supply loses power until you push
the BIG GREEN BUTTON again.

Fadal Woes: "Axis Controller Does Not Respond to NC"

Spent some time today swapping around relays, and bypassed the emergency stop circuit - by jumping the right side of F16 to F12.

With that, I had 160v DC across the big blue capacitor, but still the servo amps wouldn't power up. And the screen still rolls with the same alarms.

Reseated all cards again.

Double-checked 3 phase in, and transformer output voltages.

Tested all three resolvers by getting 1.7v AC at the wire-plugs. The wires on the very bottom of the 1010- cards.

Two different PC power supplies made no difference.

The new power supply arrives tomorrow, so I'm anxious to try it.

I did find the 3.6v battery on the main board was pretty much dead though!
I jury-rigged a good 3.6 in its place, and tried power up again.

No dice.

Spoke with Dan at ITSCNC, he said that's the first thing to check: the battery.

He also said rolling alarm messages can be indicative of a resolver problem, but like I say they tested good for voltage at least.

To be continued....

(In the words of one Russ)

ToolCat