Fanuc 21iM vs 16 vs 18

Hardplates · Aug 19, 2020

I do mostly 3D milling and surfacing. I'm looking to step up my game and get a machine that can handle lots of little linear moves quickly and smooth them out in the controller rather than having to do it in CAM.

I am far more familiar with older controls from the late 80s and I push a 32 bit Mitsu 320M far harder and faster than people have said I could but the time seems to be right to step into something a little more modern (for me anyway).

It is my understanding that a 16 is superior to an 18 (Fanuc has a wonderful numbering system :angry:

)I am aware that options can play a big roll also but I don't really know which options to look for.

In my search for an OKK with a Mitsu 600 series I came across one with a Fanuc 21iM. What's the deal with the 21iM? Better than a 16? Worse? Same but newer? Older? Also is a 16 and a 16i different?

As with most things Fanuc it is shrouded in mystery and secrecy. I was hoping someone could help me decipher the hieroglyphs.

Thanks in advance
Paul

Rick Finsta · Aug 19, 2020

The i are the "modern" series. Some one else will know better but I don't think you could get anything not "i" since around 2000?

Ox · Aug 19, 2020

I think the 18 was available with the i for a few more years.

From the applications that I have seen the controls used on, I have been under the impression that 18 was King Shiite, with 16 next below, and 21 under there somewhere. I have an 18, 16, and 18i, but I have never ran a 21, but the 21 seems to be mounted on more entry level machines.

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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

Hardplates · Aug 19, 2020

Ox said:
I think the 18 was available with the i for a few more years.

From the applications that I have seen the controls used on, I have been under the impression that 18 was King Shiite, with 16 next below, and 21 under there somewhere. I have an 18, 16, and 18i, but I have never ran a 21, but the 21 seems to be mounted on more entry level machines.

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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

You may be correct but, I was recently looking at a Hitachi Seiki which came standard with an 18 but this particular machine had the die and mold package with a higher HP spindle and a 16 control. Also OKKs at least in the past were higher end machines that every one I've seen had a fancy control, although usually Mitsubishi. This is what made me wonder if the 21i was a better control than an 18 or 16.

Fanuc's numbering system is worse than Caterpillar's lettering system.

Ox · Aug 19, 2020

I think the 16 is kind of a rare duck.
I think it was out first, like maybe a year or so before the 18?
Like '95, but it appears the 18 was out in '96 from what I have on my trailer. (best guess)

Having both of them, I couldn't tell you what the difference is between them.
Sure, they're not the same, but 99% of that is how the MTB (retrofitter on one actually) set it up, not the control....

The 21 is a later addition AFAI can tell.
And I've only ever seen it on entry level lathes.
Not sure I've ever even heard of a 21"M".

So - yes, I'd say that the 16 is likely a fine control.

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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

13engines · Aug 19, 2020

For the OP's type of work, he'll want to choose a 16 over an 18. The 16 has available, as an option, a RISC control card. (Reduced Instruction Set Control) which I believe can do NURBS type stuff. I think it completely walks all over G8 Look Ahead and the G5.1? version of that. BTW, the RISC card can not be added to an 18 control. I'm not sure how much work is involved on the part of the MTB to incorporate the RISC functionality into the machine. If you're lucky it will be mostly on the Fanuc end, to where just plugging it in and tweaking with a few parameters will get you to where you want to go with it, and without having to swap out any servo drive hardware. One can hope anyway.

Oddly enough I think the lower numbered Fanuc controls like the 11 and 15 are in some ways more advanced or "higher order" then their higher numbered brothers. Or so I've read somewhere. The details of what makes that so are beyond me. I also think the 21 is closer to that group then it is to the 16 and 18, but as has been said, I do think the 21 is a more entry level model. Maybe a glorified O?

I have an 18i lathe, but I have no idea where the i controls stand in the advanced feed control arena, or if RISC is part of that or not. I've bumped into a few Fanuc color advertisements or brochures in the last couple years that went through a lot of their options. Maybe you can stumble on to something by just digging around fanucamerica for awhile. The only problem might be how much legacy information you can find.

DavidScott · Aug 19, 2020

Definitely confirm this but the 16 is the flagship of it's era, the 18 is next, blank space, blank space, then the 21. I believe the 21 didn't have fiber optic feedback for the closed loop but the 18 and 16 did. I don't know how important the high speed machining option is for these Fanuc controls but I have it on my i80 Yasnac and the difference is mind-blowing. From starting to round corners at 40ipm with it off to crisp corners under a microscope at any feed rate with it on.

M is for mill and L is for lathe, the controls are the same, the software is what is different, for the most part.

Fancuku · Aug 20, 2020

16i was the high end control at the time. The i designation meant more network options and the ability to use a PC card.
I think Douglas Rizzo touched a little bit on the subject a couple of weeks back.

Hardplates · Aug 20, 2020

DavidScott said:
Definitely confirm this but the 16 is the flagship of it's era, the 18 is next, blank space, blank space, then the 21. I believe the 21 didn't have fiber optic feedback for the closed loop but the 18 and 16 did. I don't know how important the high speed machining option is for these Fanuc controls but I have it on my i80 Yasnac and the difference is mind-blowing. From starting to round corners at 40ipm with it off to crisp corners under a microscope at any feed rate with it on.

M is for mill and L is for lathe, the controls are the same, the software is what is different, for the most part.

Do you know how to tell if the i80 has the high speed option? There is a Matsura with one that may fit my needs

DouglasJRizzo · Aug 20, 2020

Hardplates said:
As with most things Fanuc it is shrouded in mystery and secrecy. I was hoping someone could help me decipher the hieroglyphs.

Thanks in advance
Paul

Fanuc uses a decreasing number system for its product line and has since about 1990. The 0 is by itself, then, in order of system sophistication, 21, 18, 16, and (for a while) 15. The 15 and 16 are close for power. If you see an "i" then the control is equipped with a LAN system and communications.

Any of these controls will make good parts. 16s get seen on vintage equipment that was very high end and/or high speed machines. When it was new, it was quite the control, even overshadowing the 15 for many things due to its RISC architecture.

Remember, you're talking about 25 year old controls. These are not current by any means. But they are still supported and can boogy pretty good for their age.

If you're really choking down the data, I'd go with a 16/16i.

The big improvements have been seen in the 0 which is the value leader of the Fanuc line, due to ever increasing prices of controls. The current 0i-F Plus can cook pretty good.

As I said, any of these will do and make good parts. If I was looking to really pack the data, I'd look for a 16/16i

DavidScott · Aug 20, 2020

Hardplates said:
Do you know how to tell if the i80 has the high speed option? There is a Matsura with one that may fit my needs

You want to see a JCP05 card in the cabinet with the drives, that is the High-Speed machining card that supports it. RS232 is usually only up to 9600 baud but Ethernet was an option as well, just no one knows anything about it if you are having problems. Yaskawa did speak the highest of Matsurra for tech help on these controls. Technically if it has HSM or Ethernet then it is a J300 control.

xyzzy · Aug 22, 2020

Years ago (2008) I was sent this cheat sheet by someone at GE Fanuc, always found it kind of handy.

Ox · Aug 23, 2020

That is an interesting chart, and I saved it, but with that info I challenged it - if you will.

I went and searched up Nakamura lathes, as they are the most likely candidates for trippple turret machines that would break out the top of the 8 axis threshold - and see what they were running for controls.

Search Results for "Nakamura" - MachineTools.com

I found a couple 11 axis sporting a 16iTB

There was a 9 axis with the 16 as well.

But I did find one with the 31 on it.

These applications have more total axi's as well as tripple paths (which the 16 does show) and at least 8 axi's simultanious.
Maybe the "B" model was updated to more?
But these machines date back to at least 2003, which predates your cheat sheet by 5 years.

???

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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

DouglasJRizzo · Aug 23, 2020

From CNC Engineering:

https://www.cnc1.com/hubfs/files/Fanuc_Timeline.pdf

Hardplates · Aug 23, 2020

DouglasJRizzo said:
From CNC Engineering:

https://www.cnc1.com/hubfs/files/Fanuc_Timeline.pdf

So any opinions on how an Oi-mc would handle speedy code? Keep in mind I'm not looking for mold making accuracy, just a smooth fast toolpath.

Hardplates · Sep 3, 2020

DouglasJRizzo said:
Fanuc uses a decreasing number system for its product line and has since about 1990. The 0 is by itself, then, in order of system sophistication, 21, 18, 16, and (for a while) 15. The 15 and 16 are close for power. If you see an "i" then the control is equipped with a LAN system and communications.

Any of these controls will make good parts. 16s get seen on vintage equipment that was very high end and/or high speed machines. When it was new, it was quite the control, even overshadowing the 15 for many things due to its RISC architecture.

Remember, you're talking about 25 year old controls. These are not current by any means. But they are still supported and can boogy pretty good for their age.

If you're really choking down the data, I'd go with a 16/16i.

The big improvements have been seen in the 0 which is the value leader of the Fanuc line, due to ever increasing prices of controls. The current 0i-F Plus can cook pretty good.

As I said, any of these will do and make good parts. If I was looking to really pack the data, I'd look for a 16/16i

So is a 16 "better" than a 15? Looking at a Kitty horizontal with a 15

dandrummerman21 · Sep 3, 2020

Hardplates said:
So is a 16 "better" than a 15? Looking at a Kitty horizontal with a 15

I thought that the 15 was the highest of the grouping of 0/10/11/15. 20 may have been even higher??

Then they had 0/16/18/21 with 16 being the highest? (WHY??)

You looking at an h400? Or perhaps h300 or h500?

What year? We have a 1998 machine. It has the big LCD color screen, and alpha drives (instead of the older digital servo drives)

Have a h400 with 15mB here. With it being my only 15 control, and comparing it to the 0 / 21 /16i, I would not necessarily say any of those are "better" than a 15, just a bit more modern.

I feel the 15 is way more powerful than a 16.

I must note that because it has the lcd color screen, it probably makes it feel nicer than it would be with the monochrome.

My opinions of the h400 are high.

If doing high speed milling, you will want to use G5.1Q1 with those tool paths, very jittery if you don't.

Hardplates · Sep 3, 2020

An H400 Just doing some due diligence before actually putting eyes on it. It will likely be clapped out like most horizontals with pallet changers are since they usually run heavy production. But I've gotten lucky before and getting lucky means looking at lots of machines.

Hardplates · Sep 3, 2020

dandrummerman21 said:
I thought that the 15 was the highest of the grouping of 0/10/11/15. 20 may have been even higher??

Then they had 0/16/18/21 with 16 being the highest? (WHY??)

You looking at an h400? Or perhaps h300 or h500?

What year? We have a 1998 machine. It has the big LCD color screen, and alpha drives (instead of the older digital servo drives)

Have a h400 with 15mB here. With it being my only 15 control, and comparing it to the 0 / 21 /16i, I would not necessarily say any of those are "better" than a 15, just a bit more modern.

I feel the 15 is way more powerful than a 16.

I must note that because it has the lcd color screen, it probably makes it feel nicer than it would be with the monochrome.

My opinions of the h400 are high.

If doing high speed milling, you will want to use G5.1Q1 with those tool paths, very jittery if you don't.

Kitty lists the machine as 96" tall but in pictures it looks like the servo sticks up much higher than the rest of the machine. Any idea how tall it with the servo removed?

dandrummerman21 · Sep 3, 2020

Hardplates said:
An H400 Just doing some due diligence before actually putting eyes on it. It will likely be clapped out like most horizontals with pallet changers are since they usually run heavy production. But I've gotten lucky before and getting lucky means looking at lots of machines.

I understand about the lucky part. This machine was very lucky. Was local, and it gave them issues. I've got a couple of threads about it.

The pallet change arm is powered by a servo (machine lists it as the W axis), pushes and pulls the pallet out. But the damn thing would randomly THUMP and servo out with an overload, "8" on the drive.

They changed the drive. They changed the motor. They changed all the cables. They changed parameters. Then they gave up on it. We bought it for a very low amount of money.

We replaced the ADAX board (extra axis board). then the CPU. Then the Power supply. Still did it.

Would only alarm out occasionally, maybe once a day, but might go weeks without issue if you fiddled with boards.

Long story short, finally figured out it was the axis CARD on the ADAX board that was failing. Only figured it out when it completely failed and actually gave an alarm that specifically pointed to the card.

Because of the issue above, they did not run the piss out of this machine, because they couldn't rely on it. So it is VERY tight and used a lot less than a 20 year old horizontal should have been.

Obviously this was a Fanuc issue and not a machine issue. I stand by the fact that this machine is solid, and the ladder logic is pretty good (although I wish it would turn the spindle and coolant back on after it stops for optional stop or M0!!!!!!!!!!!!!! annoying.)

Fanuc 21iM vs 16 vs 18

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