Fanuc Tape Drill Model T (1990) vs Robodrill Model T (1992)

Djwade · Oct 10, 2020

Hi all,

Was hoping for some specific model advice within the Fanuc product universe. I've been looking for something for my garage and these earlier Fanuc Robodrills seem to fit the bill. I have two local to me that both claim to be low hours. The newer model (1992) I've been able to discuss with a fair bit and am going to take a look at on Tuesday. It seems to have a good maintenance history with a knowledgeable owner. He's currently asking $10,000.

On the other hand, there's another listing that I haven't been able to get in direct contact with the owner quite yet, is slightly older (1990), also claims low hours, and doesn't look to be in terrible condition. Asking price there is $4000.

Both have the O-M control.

My main question is whether or not there's something significant besides wear and tear that could justify the huge price difference between the two. It seems like at the asking price of the 1990 model, even if some of the linear ways and ball screws needed replacing, I would still end up ahead price-wise, and in that scenario have known newer linear components. At the same time, having clearer communication with the prior owner of the more expensive one gives me more confidence, but it's hard to say whether or not it's worth paying 2.5x

Any input on the matter would be greatly appreciated.

DavidScott · Oct 10, 2020

Do they both use BT-30 holders? I ran a 1984 that had proprietary holders. Do they both have the same amount of memory? What kind of support can you get? From Fanuc and from the dealer? Best to find out before you buy, this can not be overstated.

Hardplates · Oct 10, 2020

Just my opinion but with a small 30 taper machine you need to be able to take fast light cuts which is not something an OM control lends itself to. If I were going to get a mill with a OM it would be a heavy box way machine that can just plow straight through material.

Those machines were really designed to do basic stuff like drill and tap

Djwade · Oct 10, 2020

DavidScott said:
Do they both use BT-30 holders? I ran a 1984 that had proprietary holders. Do they both have the same amount of memory? What kind of support can you get? From Fanuc and from the dealer? Best to find out before you buy, this can not be overstated.

Both are 6k RPM BT-30 Machines. Both have 64k memory. As far as support, these are independent sales. I'm looking to purchase something that can fit within my limited available space, and is mainly intended to be a step up from a tormach hobby-style mill. Parts are available from Fanuc for these still, at least thats what I was initially told over the phone on friday.

Djwade · Oct 10, 2020

Hardplates said:
Just my opinion but with a small 30 taper machine you need to be able to take fast light cuts which is not something an OM control lends itself to. If I were going to get a mill with a OM it would be a heavy box way machine that can just plow straight through material.

Those machines were really designed to do basic stuff like drill and tap

Most of the work I anticipate doing is prototyping, not necessarily volume work. I've also been looking at things like Fadal 2016Ls, VMC15s, and older Haas TM1s. In looking around it seemed like these robo-drills, even with the limitation that the OM control has, would be more capable than the Fadals and the Haas. Would there be something else to look in to? I have another thread dedicated to this, but I'm generally looking to get into the best I can for under 10K, and these seemingly were at the top of the list in terms of capability.

DavidScott · Oct 10, 2020

Who told you parts are available? Fanuc? Any fees involved? It really, really, really helps if you can call the national tech center to get questions answered. I really doubt those machines are in perfect working order, no matter what the seller says.

As far as the list of machines you are looking at the newer Robo is by far the best IMO. The downside is low drawbar force, probably around 400lbs, but this is just something to think about while running it, don't let it scare you off. These little mills will run a 1/2" end mill just fine, especially corn cobs for heavy metal removal, and I wouldn't be shy about 40-50% stepovers with decent docs. 6k isn't a deal-breaker either, a little slow but bearings will last forever.

If it's in good enough shape and you can get parts for it I would say you would be hard-pressed to do better for the price. I would also say go for the better one, you may whine about the $$$$ now but in a year you will be happy about it, as long as there is nothing wrong with it. Both are linear way so check the head alignment, they are easy to knock out in a crash and is way too common.

Do they both have ridged tap???

Djwade · Oct 10, 2020

I know the newer one for sure has Rigid tap, haven't heard back about the older one quite yet.

As it stands, the newer one is certainly the best contender, and I know a fairly lengthy history on it. The current owner only does production on plastics, so doesn't even run coolant, just air assist. They had the machine fully reconditioned when they purchased, and the prior two owners were a medical/dental company mostly working with plastic, and a model sailboat builder, so it seems it lived a fairly easy life, though it is still a ~28 year old machine.

It really seems to be the better option, the 2.5x price just made me hesitate.

DavidScott · Oct 10, 2020

If everything you say is true then why hesitate? What about circular interpolation with a Z axis move? Like thead milling. A very handy toolpath that I am not sure all OMs would do, the 3M wouldn't. One of my current mills is a 1996 Enshu equivalent to the Robo, I have nothing against these old mills. Mine had not had an electrical problem in the 16 years I have had it, dead reliable. Simple control but it has done everything I wanted, but I haven't ever done dnc.

Hardplates · Oct 10, 2020

DavidScott said:
If everything you say is true then why hesitate? What about circular interpolation with a Z axis move? Like thead milling. A very handy toolpath that I am not sure all OMs would do, the 3M wouldn't. One of my current mills is a 1996 Enshu equivalent to the Robo, I have nothing against these old mills. Mine had not had an electrical problem in the 16 years I have had it, dead reliable. Simple control but it has done everything I wanted, but I haven't ever done dnc.

I think helical interpolation is just a parameter change on an OM, I could be wrong though

Djwade · Oct 10, 2020

DavidScott said:
If everything you say is true then why hesitate? What about circular interpolation with a Z axis move? Like thread milling. A very handy toolpath that I am not sure all OMs would do, the 3M wouldn't. One of my current mills is a 1996 Enshu equivalent to the Robo, I have nothing against these old mills. Mine had not had an electrical problem in the 16 years I have had it, dead reliable. Simple control but it has done everything I wanted, but I haven't ever done dnc.

To my knowledge, the newer one has it, again not sure about the old one. The main hesitation was regarding paying 2.5x if I could get something similar for that much less, but this discussion is convincing me that the additional expense now can save me a lot of time and expense in the future, especially with a more forthcoming owner in terms of information.

I'll be seeing it on Tuesday, and I expect I'll purchase it then, I just didn't want to overlook something.

DavidScott · Oct 12, 2020

After buying a few used mills now I would be very leery of the cheaper machine, a little more $$$$ for a machine in better condition is way cheaper than trying to repair the cheaper machine. Even after you get it in your shop you will probably be finding things wrong with it for months. One of my first thoughts is the way wipers are probably shot and you should replace them before using coolant. The way to test is to see if you can get a feeler gage to slide under them. I use a .003" one since it is just stiff enough to work. Most major issues start as little guarding failures. Sure the blocks on the ways have seals, but after 20 years they don't work as well as they used to, at best.

If you need to replace ways and screws a cheap ball park is $3000 an axis for the ways and screw alone, which is probably quite low. You can reball screws but it is a PITA, is about $300 a screw, requires about 3 trys, and when you are done you have about 10% of a new screw. At least Balltech is close by so you won't waste much time with shipping.

What does "fully reconditioned" mean?

These would be excellent garage machines as they have greased spindles and wouldn't mind sitting. Another bonus, in my mind, is at 5000lbs you could just rent a drop deck trailer, get 6 lengths of 3/4" to 1/1/2" pipe as rollers, some tie downs, a come-along, and do the move yourself.

Djwade · Oct 12, 2020

DavidScott said:
After buying a few used mills now I would be very leery of the cheaper machine, a little more $$$$ for a machine in better condition is way cheaper than trying to repair the cheaper machine. Even after you get it in your shop you will probably be finding things wrong with it for months. One of my first thoughts is the way wipers are probably shot and you should replace them before using coolant. The way to test is to see if you can get a feeler gage to slide under them. I use a .003" one since it is just stiff enough to work. Most major issues start as little guarding failures. Sure the blocks on the ways have seals, but after 20 years they don't work as well as they used to, at best.

If you need to replace ways and screws a cheap ball park is $3000 an axis for the ways and screw alone, which is probably quite low. You can reball screws but it is a PITA, is about $300 a screw, requires about 3 trys, and when you are done you have about 10% of a new screw. At least Balltech is close by so you won't waste much time with shipping.

What does "fully reconditioned" mean?

These would be excellent garage machines as they have greased spindles and wouldn't mind sitting. Another bonus, in my mind, is at 5000lbs you could just rent a drop deck trailer, get 6 lengths of 3/4" to 1/1/2" pipe as rollers, some tie downs, a come-along, and do the move yourself.

Regarding the fully reconditioned, my impression is that it was thoroughly inspected, things that had worn were replaced (like wipers, etc), and it received new windows, but that was the extent of major parts replacement.

Is there a good resource for all sorts of checks like you mentioned regarding the seals? I'm fairly familiar with basic service, but all I have done in the past was on a lighter box way machine, mostly centered around adjusting the gibs, general lubrication, and leveling base casting and the table.

DavidScott · Oct 12, 2020

Djwade said:
Regarding the fully reconditioned, my impression is that it was thoroughly inspected, things that had worn were replaced (like wipers, etc), and it received new windows, but that was the extent of major parts replacement.

Is there a good resource for all sorts of checks like you mentioned regarding the seals? I'm fairly familiar with basic service, but all I have done in the past was on a lighter box way machine, mostly centered around adjusting the gibs, general lubrication, and leveling base casting and the table.

No idea about a master inspection list. Listen to how everything sounds at full speed, especially the spindle, and listen to it change tools trying to hear any misalignment. Being an old lighter built linear way machine I would check all axis for squareness with the head being the biggest suspect. It is quite easy to move them with a crash and the head is the most likely to have that happen. Not a deal breaker and I would suspect it's out.
Open up the electrical cabinet and see if it's nice and clean and tidy. Look for wiring and cabling that looks old and cracking. General condition kind of tells a lot, how worn looking is the control panel, stuff like that. To do a real thorough inspection would take a day or more. It seems it has taken me around 6 months to find everything wrong with the used machines I have purchased.

Wait till you have it in your garage, have just powered it up, and are starting to wonder what the hell you have just gotten yourself into.

Djwade · Oct 13, 2020

DavidScott said:
No idea about a master inspection list. Listen to how everything sounds at full speed, especially the spindle, and listen to it change tools trying to hear any misalignment. Being an old lighter built linear way machine I would check all axis for squareness with the head being the biggest suspect. It is quite easy to move them with a crash and the head is the most likely to have that happen. Not a deal breaker and I would suspect it's out.
Open up the electrical cabinet and see if it's nice and clean and tidy. Look for wiring and cabling that looks old and cracking. General condition kind of tells a lot, how worn looking is the control panel, stuff like that. To do a real thorough inspection would take a day or more. It seems it has taken me around 6 months to find everything wrong with the used machines I have purchased.

Wait till you have it in your garage, have just powered it up, and are starting to wonder what the hell you have just gotten yourself into.

Went to go look at it and had a really positive experience looking at it. Seems like it had been really well taken care of. They had 3 robodrills, and this one was the only one not used regularly for production, and even then, they only ever machined plastic.

Spindle generally sounded good, a little different compared to what I'm used to, but sounded the same as their other robodrills. Rapids seemed smooth, tool changes were quick, and overall a really clean machine.

I found out more details regarding the reconditioning: when it was reconditioned in 2006, the z axis was redone, and new chip guards and wipers were installed.

I ended up putting an offer and have a verbal handshake on the sale. So far I have to agree that the money spent now is going to be money saved in the future, at least that's my hope. I feel much better seeing the machine run for an hour today.

Big thing I need to figure out is how much the z axis needs to be disassembled to fit into my garage. I also need to start educating myself with Fanuc controls.

The two questions I have now are 1) how important is something like a phase perfect vs a rotary phase converter for a CNC like the robodrill, and 2) what's the dimension of the machine with the z axis servo removed.

Does anyone happen to have the parts or operator manual or at least those dimensions? It would be great confirming I can squeeze it into the garage without too much effort.

DavidScott · Oct 14, 2020

What manuals are you getting with the machine? No schematics manual is a real :eek:

if you ever need it. What about parameter backup? When were the memory batteries last replaced?

My money is on Phase Perfect. I started out with a rotary but will NEVER go back. You will also need a buck transformer if it wants 200 or 220 volts. Compressor and a way to remove the water from the air?

I agree with barbter about taking a tape measure to see for yourself what the height of the machine is. But I would use 3/8" steel rollers to reduce the height vs taking more apart to use skates. Make sure the leveling bolts are backed out so they DO NOT protrude below the casting for moving. This is way too common and causes all kinds of problems, including fucking up the threads. Don't like that word, well wait till you're trying to fix them to get them to go into the casting so the rollers don't catch on them.

Make damn sure that the head is lowered as much as needed when the machine is prepped for moving, this also is often overlooked and once you don't have power to it your screwed. Perhaps put it in writing with a $$$$ penalty if not done.

Yes, way better off paying more now for a better machine than one that needs a lot of work.

D.D.Machine · Oct 14, 2020

I looked at some of the early drill /tap machines like 20 years ago and they were mostly spot to spot drilling and had "VARY" little milling available on the control ,, you might look into that before you get in to deep with them ,,

jhov · Oct 14, 2020

If you can afford it, a Phase Perfect is probably the ideal solution for 3ph power. No moving parts and well built, it should last forever. They also seem to hold their value well. I opted for an American Rotary AD converter, as it was about 1/3rd the price new and I'm happy with it so far.

Does the control drip feed? 64k memory is tiny and only really suitable for simple 2.5D operations.

DavidScott · Oct 14, 2020

D.D.Machine said:
I looked at some of the early drill /tap machines like 20 years ago and they were mostly spot to spot drilling and had "VARY" little milling available on the control ,, you might look into that before you get in to deep with them ,,

I have no idea what you are talking about. I have used them for over 20 years now and even the 1984 model could mill fine with 1/2" end mills. Shit, even the 1978 robos could mill fine with 1/2" end mills. The only robo that I know of that couldn't really mill was from the mid 70s with linear motors, but that is going way back.

Djwade · Oct 14, 2020

DavidScott said:
What manuals are you getting with the machine? No schematics manual is a real if you ever need it. What about parameter backup? When were the memory batteries last replaced?

My money is on Phase Perfect. I started out with a rotary but will NEVER go back. You will also need a buck transformer if it wants 200 or 220 volts. Compressor and a way to remove the water from the air?

I agree with barbter about taking a tape measure to see for yourself what the height of the machine is. But I would use 3/8" steel rollers to reduce the height vs taking more apart to use skates. Make sure the leveling bolts are backed out so they DO NOT protrude below the casting for moving. This is way too common and causes all kinds of problems, including fucking up the threads. Don't like that word, well wait till you're trying to fix them to get them to go into the casting so the rollers don't catch on them.

Make damn sure that the head is lowered as much as needed when the machine is prepped for moving, this also is often overlooked and once you don't have power to it your screwed. Perhaps put it in writing with a $$$$ penalty if not done.

Yes, way better off paying more now for a better machine than one that needs a lot of work.

Batteries were replaced last year, and they have a backup of the parameters, as well as an identical machine. First thing I'm going to do once it's powered up again though is back them up, just to be extra sure.

To the best of my knowledge, I'll be getting all the manuals, including operation, parts, maintenance, etc.

Thanks very much for the moving tips. I think I'll be removing the feet entirely to maximize clearance. It's going to be a tight squeeze, but some direct measurements and a call to method to confirm, and I should be able to make it through my garage door with an inch to spare.

Djwade · Oct 14, 2020

D.D.Machine said:
I looked at some of the early drill /tap machines like 20 years ago and they were mostly spot to spot drilling and had "VARY" little milling available on the control ,, you might look into that before you get in to deep with them ,,

The machine was being used mostly for doing some second-op milling. While the OM isn't the fastest, the programs they ran through were plenty convincing of its capabilities for my needs initially. Sure it won't hog through a bunch of tool steel, but 99% of what I plan on doing initially is going to be Aluminum and plastics, so it should be a great starting point.

Fanuc Tape Drill Model T (1990) vs Robodrill Model T (1992)

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