Fanuc vs Siemens vs Mitsubishi vs Heidenhain

Was just curious to know comparisons, pros & cons of these controllers.
And what you people rank them according to your experiences & in short why.

A few months ago I got a Doosan DNM 5700 with a Fanuc 0i-M. The machine seems good, the control is bad. It works, but it's slow and counter-intuitive. Loading programs from a USB is much more complicated than it should be. It has a conversational control, but the techs didn't know how to use it and couldn't teach me. When using the probe/tool setting/tool changing menus, you have to enter numbers into fields before pressing the green button, and most of the time when you press the green button, it will give an alarm saying to press the reset button. Pressing the reset button clears all the numbers you just typed in and reloads the menu, which wastes a lot of time. This is a recurring theme with the control, it always needs the reset button to be pressed for some reason and this doubles the amount of time it takes to get anything done with the control.

Also, I have probing cycles integrated with my part programs to locate the parts accurately. The probing cycles are ridiculously slow, it takes 3 minutes to probe 4 holes for location because the machine just waits several seconds between lines of code in the probing cycle. This could easily double part cycle times for less complex parts.

This was my first Fanuc machine, it's a shame that most of the machines available in the US do not offer anything other than Fanuc because I will be seriously hesitant to buy any Fanuc machine in the future.

So far the hardware seems to be working fine, I hope what I've read on this forum about Fanuc being a long-lasting and reliable control system is true because that would be its only redeeming quality.

rvb88 said:

Was just curious to know comparisons, pros & cons of these controllers.
And what you people rank them according to your experiences & in short why. ��

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All of them rank below Okuma's OSP control.

This is something I would love to hear some feedback on as well. We just got a new router about a year ago with a Fagor Controller. Our old router with a Windows based controller is so much more user friendly. Everthing we do on the new router is 4-10 times more keystrokes than on the new one. Stopping to check or change a tool mid program is an ordeal and easy to mess up and have to re start the program. On the old router it "stop" jog the cutter up check or change it reset offsets and "resume", the new one has way more steps and requires M codes to start and stop the spindle. Everything from loading the program to setting offsets to starting the program takes considerably longer due to all the extra keystrokes and having to go page to page to page.


In my opinion these days there is no excuse for a controller not to be user friendly. Not only is there the time wasted with all the extra keystrokes but the more complicated things are the more opportunity for errors.


I know I am going to get backlash over my not liking to have to remember and enter M codes in the controller but I do ALL my programming in CAM as that is the only way to do 99% of my work and using it all the time I am pretty fast at doing a program in CAM for the odd simple jobs. I just think hitting Resume makes some much more sense than M3, Cycle start, reposition, cycle start, end tool inspection, cycle start.


I am going to be buying a Machining center soon, probably used and what controller it has will be a big part of the decision as to what machine to buy.

Generic Default said:

A few months ago I got a Doosan DNM 5700 with a Fanuc 0i-M. The machine seems good, the control is bad. It works, but it's slow and counter-intuitive. Loading programs from a USB is much more complicated than it should be. It has a conversational control, but the techs didn't know how to use it and couldn't teach me. When using the probe/tool setting/tool changing menus, you have to enter numbers into fields before pressing the green button, and most of the time when you press the green button, it will give an alarm saying to press the reset button. Pressing the reset button clears all the numbers you just typed in and reloads the menu, which wastes a lot of time. This is a recurring theme with the control, it always needs the reset button to be pressed for some reason and this doubles the amount of time it takes to get anything done with the control.

Also, I have probing cycles integrated with my part programs to locate the parts accurately. The probing cycles are ridiculously slow, it takes 3 minutes to probe 4 holes for location because the machine just waits several seconds between lines of code in the probing cycle. This could easily double part cycle times for less complex parts.

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Seems to me like you are blaming a lot of things on Fanuc that are either implemented by the MTB or a product of your lack of familiarity with the control.

You shouldn't have to press reset every time you enter data- maybe you should hit the reset button before you start? Sounds to me like you aren't really dialed in on what you are trying to accomplish, as far as the sequence goes. Such as cancelling active offsets before setting new ones, etc.

I won't ask why you have to probe mid-cycle and adjust zeros, but the probing macros are not Doosan macros? How does Fanuc know how that machine is going to be optioned out? Have you looked at them to see if there is something you can speed up?

Generic Default said:

This was my first Fanuc machine, it's a shame that most of the machines available in the US do not offer anything other than Fanuc because I will be seriously hesitant to buy any Fanuc machine in the future.

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So after 3 months you are ready to write off Fanuc? I guess you should have bought a Haas.

I've been using Fanuc controls since 1981. I have always found them to be rock-solid, bulletproof controls. They do exactly what I expect them to do. Yes, they have their own "features" like funky keypads and they aren't the easiest control to learn how to navigate around. But Fanuc supports every control they ever built, I don't know anyone else that can say that. And if you have a question, it's pretty easy to get an answer because the installed base is huge.

I love my Fanucs, wouldn't put anything on the shop floor that didn't have a Fanuc control on it.

When I started getting into CNC from using just manual machines because I wanted to make some actual money at machining I must admit the controller thing had me stunned.

I had worked as a product manager for software companies here in Silicon Valley and was astounded at how poorly done the controls that I worked with were done.

Rule number one on making any software was always "don't ever let an engineer design the interface". It will turn out totally logical and completely incomprehensible to most users.

I was also stunned by how anemic and expensive the hardware was. Haas prices on memory and hard drives was staggering. I had been on the pricing end of these things running the server division of a different company. Even the most expensive memory or HDD was a fraction the price they charge.

In a previous discussion on this topic people had mentioned that it was the reliability. This is true if you believe the Fanuc ads in either CTE or MMS magazine where they tout an uptime average of 52 years.

They had obviously never used my control that I have to hit Reset multiple times or it won't do anything. Or how sometimes it won't let me change Main Program unless I restart it and it all the sudden works. On my lathe that is also Fanuc I can't hit the turret jog more than 3 or 4 times in a row or it sticks and does this weird thing were it always goes back to the same station. Then I restart it and its fine.

But most of my experience is with Fanuc. It is endlessly unintuitive but I have learned how they think so I am getting much better with it. I shouldn't have to but so be it.

May be other controllers are very easy, haven't gotten to try them yet.

EDIT: To be perfectly candid I must say that after I have gotten this far with Fanuc I don't ever want to use another controller type. I can't imagine having to go through this learning curve again. I now feel comfortable with it and don't want it to change.

Jaxian said:

...They had obviously never used my control that I have to hit Reset multiple times or it won't do anything. Or how sometimes it won't let me change Main Program unless I restart it and it all the sudden works. On my lathe that is also Fanuc I can't hit the turret jog more than 3 or 4 times in a row or it sticks and does this weird thing were it always goes back to the same station. Then I restart it and its fine.

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That may be bad switch, bad prox sensor.

Everything that has ever failed on one of my Fanucs was an MTB part, not a Fanuc part.

Never heard of having to hit reset a bunch of times to get a control to wake up.

My Haas has what I call the "running alarm" (I named it myself, it's not in the book).

I'm in a program, tool finishes, head goes up for the tool change and it just sits there with the spindle running. That's it. End of work, lol. Bottom of the screen says "running".

Reset button does nothing. None of the control buttons do anything. E-Stop does nothing. Can't jog, can't change modes, can't do anything.

The only way out is power down and power back up, home it out, pick up in the program where I left off and keep going.

It happens 2-3 times a year, has done it as long as I've owned it. Not repeatable, so not reportable...

I would agree with Mtndew- Okumas are rock-solid and stable controls too. But the learning curve is no friendlier than Fanuc, so pick one and stick with would be my advice.

Okuma controls come on Okuma iron. You can get a Fanuc on anything...

I have used OSP, Fanuc, Mits, and Heidenhain, but my preference is Fanuc from a troubleshooting point of view, not programming. I will work on any brand of machine if it has a Fanuc control and the customer has a copy of the ladder logic. I like the OSP for the ease of setting data or positions etc, "calculate, write", done. But troubleshooting sucks as does trying to use the ladder logic feature on any version of OSP.

guest said:

My Haas has what I call the "running alarm" (I named it myself, it's not in the book).

I'm in a program, tool finishes, head goes up for the tool change and it just sits there with the spindle running. That's it. End of work, lol. Bottom of the screen says "running".

Reset button does nothing. None of the control buttons do anything. E-Stop does nothing. Can't jog, can't change modes, can't do anything.

The only way out is power down and power back up, home it out, pick up in the program where I left off and keep going.

It happens 2-3 times a year, has done it as long as I've owned it. Not repeatable, so not reportable...

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Yeah, the NG control does have a tendency to go out for lunch and not come back from time to time.
The old control tough - in my experience anyway - is about as bulletproof as it gets. Between the 4 I have, not once did it need a reboot or a RESET even. Never.
Fanuc Oi ... cumbersome as shiit, rock solid when all is well but it also likes to be AWOL at times. (WTF does it mean "Number of Amps too small" when powering up ? )
Mitsubishi has shit the bed only once so far, but for fu@ks sake, why can't they implement a low battery detection? Happened twice already ( first time my fault, second time Radio Smuck's )
that the main battery was gone overnight, and with a no-home machine, live tools etc, it's a real bitch to re-teach it's position.

SeymourDumore said:

(WTF does it mean "Number of Amps too small" when powering up ?

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I believe it isn't seeing one of the drives(Amplifier). May be a fiber optic cable.

SeymourDumore said:

Yeah, the NG control does have a tendency to go out for lunch and not come back from time to time.
The old control tough - in my experience anyway - is about as bulletproof as it gets. Between the 4 I have, not once did it need a reboot or a RESET even. Never.

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My Haas is a '93, so no NGC issues, it qualifies as an antique...

I lost the parameter battery a while back, it never gave me a low batt alarm at all. I just came in one morning and had a CRC error. Replaced the battery, it immediately threw a servo alarm. I went through the parameters line by line until I found the culprit, which was a bad servo gain setting that got lost when the batt died.

All in all it's been a reliable machine, I can't really criticize it. I used to get phase loss alarms on a pretty regular basis. Then my neighbor put in 1200 brand new amps of 277/480 on their own transformer, and miraculously my 480V side got real stable. They have something big over there- it would kick on and drop the voltage on one of the legs enough to cause the Haas to go on break.

SeymourDumore said:

Fanuc Oi ... cumbersome as shiit, rock solid when all is well but it also likes to be AWOL at times. (WTF does it mean "Number of Amps too small" when powering up ? )

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Never seen that one, I must be using "big" amps, lol.

edit to add: my lathe has hiccuped once or twice in 12 years, it started feeding in tenths instead of inches. Both times it was between setups where I was doing a lot of MDI stuff, I kind of assumed I did something it didn't like. Power cycling the control always fixes it though.

They are computers- they do hiccup occasionally. But on balance, my view is that of the list the OP posted, Fanuc is the top of the pile.

In regards to the brands asked about by the OP.....

Fanuc: Easy to troubleshoot most all the time. Most reliable. Shitloads of them around so finding parts (new or used or repaired), folks to run them, etc., is easiest of any of the mentioned controls.

One thing that few folks realize or understand is that with a Fanuc (and most other "universal" controls) the machine builder has enormous input in how the control is configured. The configuration will affect how it works, and what all it can do. Additionally the machine builder has to write part of the software that runs on the control. Fanuc only provides the PMC (PLC in Fanuc speak) where the builder software runs. Fanuc did not write the logic that runs your toolchanger, indexes your turret, moves the tailstock, changes pallets, runs the probe, operates the tool pre-setter, and so on. The vast majority of complaints about how a machine with a Fanuc control runs is because of how the machine builder wrote their software and how they configured/optioned the control.

Mitsubishi: Pretty easy to troubleshoot. Very reliable, but not quite up to Fanuc level. Far fewer of them around so used parts are harder to find. Mitsu does a fairly good job supporting their older hardware, but again not at the same level as Fanuc. Mitsu equipped machines often come standard with features that are optional on Fanuc equipped machines. The same things about what the builder affects applies to Mitsu equipped machines as noted in what I wrote about Fanuc.

Siemens and Heidenhain: My experience with both these brands is way less than Fanuc or Mitsu. I'm thankful for that because the experience with either is not so good. Poor support is the common theme. I have not had good luck with parts availability once these guys are 10 or so years old.

Mtndew said:

All of them rank below Okuma's OSP control.

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Better than Siemens or Heidenhain? I sure hope you are trolling...

Actually who am I kidding? I hope everyone else keeps buying machines with shitty controllers; it just give me more competitive edge.

boosted said:

Better than Siemens or Heidenhain? I sure hope you are trolling...

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I would absolutely place OSP ahead of Siemens or Heidenhain. I will say that my last experience with Heidenhain is about 7 years ago and Siemens something more than that. The negative feelings from those old experiences linger and would make me look very critically at either of those makes before considering a machine equipped with them.

boosted said:

Better than Siemens or Heidenhain? I sure hope you are trolling...

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I find this comment ASTOUNDING. IMO... OSP is/has been/remains head and shoulders above EVERY CNC control known on this here planet. I run some Fanucs, I have run just about every control I can think of (obviously) from Yasnac, Mazak, Proto??, Omniturn, Centurion, Haas, Fanuc, Heidenhein, Siemens, and the majority of their iterations.

NONE, even hold a breathe compared to OSP and any of it's iterations. 5000G green screen, was a better than anything, anyone made for 15 years after. OSP 300 is literally the best interface you can buy.

The only people who have anything negative to say, are people who are not very well versed. Or people who don't want to pony up for Okuma.

Robert

boosted said:

Better than Siemens or Heidenhain? I sure hope you are trolling...

.

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OK, so for someone who has never been exposed to either of those controls, please, by all means, chime up and describe their claim to fame!

litlerob1 said:

OSP is/has been/remains head and shoulders above EVERY CNC control known on this here planet.

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Didja ever run a K&T 'D' ?

Who's best supported in China, where you are?

I get that Siemens magazine. 80% of it is project's are in China. Up to and including Ingersoll 5 ax stuff.

Regards Phil.

I used to hate Fanuc. Our first Fanuc was an O-TC, and coming to that from other controls was like being sent back in time 20 years, and that's compared to controls that were actually older than it.

Over time we have gotten a few more Fanucs, newer and more capable than the O. As I've become accustomed to them, the raw hatred has gradually changed to mild displeasure. They are still frustrating to use compared to some others, but at least I know what to expect now. The interfaces are universally clunky and get in your way far more than they should. The whole "Fanuc just works" thing is also debateable. Generally, they are pretty solid, but even Fanuc controls have bugs. I have experienced one or two.

In terms of reliability, my experience hasn't been that Fanuc are a cut above everyone else. They are not better, they are not worse. I've had as many failures on Fanuc machines as I have on any other, discounting some really old machines that have been on life support for way too long.

In summary, I don't hate Fanuc, but I can't understand why anyone would prefer them either.

EmanuelGoldstein said:

Didja ever run a K&T 'D' ?

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.

I can only guess but I'm fairly certain Rob has never been given the gift of running a K & T "D"

What the fuck is that? State of the art in 1960?

Does any one else get this? as soon as I see the fossil Seamoss post. Barbara Streisand turns up in my head, singing Memories from Cats.