Feast or famine for CNC machinists

http://seattle.bizjournals.com/seattle/stories/2005/04/25/story1.html If you have time this article discusses the shortage of skilled machinists with CNC experience. At least for the next few years. The younger generation would rather design video games.

The article doesn't talk about the current pay levels. In my experience that is the real problem. Nobody wants to begin learning to be a machinist, pay for all the necessary tools, put in the time to learn "how" to do all this work and still make very little money for at least 10 years. Even after 10 years you are lucky if you can find a company that is willing to pay more than $15 - $18.
If I knew what I know now I think I would have gone in a different direction myself. I love what I do but, you have to pay the bills at the end of the month.

Not only is pay the problem it is the cycle of boom or bust. One month your working 12 hours shifts six days a week the next month it short hours the month after that your layed off. A lot of machinist and tool makers that i know have gotten out of the trade because they need stady long term employment.

I will say I'am of the "younger generation", I dont want to reveal my age for loss of respect reasons. The odd thing is a lot of older guys don't give me respect based on age, but when I show them what I can do that changes. A lot of young people have terrible work ethics and many people asume I do to. I have worked for everything I own and am not lazy when it comes to working everyday of the week. I am proud that I earn a check every week and have money in the bank. I decided on machining because I didnt want to work behind a desk stuck in a cubicle all day. I wanted to use my hands and machining comes natural, even though I am the only machinist in my family. I love machining and the things I get to make make at work. I will say the pay sucks at the moment, doing more setups I hope will increase my level. I love this work even if the pay isnt justified.

"I love this work even if the pay isnt justified."

And that my young friend will place you well ahead of the crowd as you gain in experience and knowledge. Keep at it - my bet is that you will rise to the top - 15 years from now you will be giving a young kid the same advice.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
"I love this work even if the pay isnt justified."

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And that my young friend will place you well ahead of the crowd as you gain in experience and knowledge. Keep at it - my bet is that you will rise to the top - 15 years from now you will be giving a young kid the same advice. </font>[/QUOTE]HAH! That comment will place you right along with everyone else. In ten years you'll be making ten bucks more an hour. Where will that leave you after you adjust for inflation, Cost of living, real estate? I'll tell you; It will leave you right where you started.

As the article stated, the aerospace industry is growing again. They can't fill the jobs because people realize that the growth will eventually level off and begin to downsize. Where does that leave the Journeyman machinist? Laid-off!

Its funny that the first to go in a downturn of the industry is skilled labor, while the first thing these companies need when growing is skilled labor.

Machining companies big, small, and in between have been nickel and dime-ing machinists for years. Anyone with half a brain has realized this. Time for them to lie in the beds they have made.

Younger folks become machinists for two reasons. They love it and there are too few of these folks to make a difference. Or they have no other options and are waiting for a better opportunity...and the first chance these folks get at a better opportunity, they're walking.

Only 18 to 22 year olds need apply as they are still to dumb to realize that monkeys get paid better than a machinist. If a 18 year old asked me if he should become a machinist.... I would say hell NO! Be a porn-star, or work at taco bell and try to manage the joint... You make more money and work in better conditions in the long run!

What line of B.S are the trade schools going to puke up to these students now? You can make a decent "wage" in five to ten years, after you have spent (credit card) 10K or 20K in tooling and paid off these College loans! Where do I sign up for such a great opportunity? Hot Damn! You mean I can spend (college loans) 7k to 10K learning this trade, and pay it off making 12 bucks an hour! That sounds like its too good to be true! Where do I sign?

Who do these companies think they are Fooling? They need suckers Post-haste!

Here is another article: http://www.pjstar.com/stories/042605/BUS_B686GHPS.004.shtml

And a line from the article:

Why can't companies find enough people for jobs that pay up to $21 an hour?

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Duh, You stupid dolts! $21 dollars comes after 10 to 15 years of putting in your "dues". The starting wages are MUCH, MUCH lower. In fact, after trade school machinists wages don't compete with Taco Bell, and McDonald's wages for similar training time. The difference between an Associate Degree in Machine Tool Tech. and an Associate in Business Fundamentals is Phenomenal. I'm talking $15K a year... easily.

Another line:

A majority of the college students in the ICC manufacturing programs - like one who took up engineering technology classes at ICC after 16 years of military duty - tend to be "non-traditional" or older, said Polanin.

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This is what I see at my school this semester, Two younger guys to ten people with grey hair.

There was a similar article in our local paper this past Sunday. Mostly talking about enrollment in the trade schools were down about 10% and employers were wanting to hire more students than were available.

Rugby10--

You seem so negative. Manufacturing has been good to me and my family and I beleive it will be for many more years. I've got two sons. I brought one into the trade and he worked with me for about 5 years. Then he moved on to another company where he thought his future would be better. He makes a good living for his wife and kids and I don't worry about his future at all. However, son #2 (who is 4 years younger) wanted nothing to do with it and opted for college instead. He's got 2 Associates Degrees and he will get his Bachelors Degree next month (been going to night school). He's 26 years old and the best job he's found so far is a loan processor at the bank for $8.50 an hour. He's been told that when he graduates, they'll bump him up to 10 bucks. He's sent out dozens of resumes in hopes of having a better prospect but so far no offers. I worry about his future.

Manufacturing may not be the best feild to get into but it is far from the worst. And I would never discourage anyone from entering this field. There are still alot of opportunities if you are willing to learn and work.

Amen, E-Stop.

My sentiments exactly. There are opportunities out there.

My home shop is doing well and looks to do much better. The work is there, It just isn't hanging off the trees that we were once used to picking it from. The people in this country want things and the Chinese are not going to make it all . I'm going to make some of it tonight.

Time to get back to work,
ARB

I admire your attitude Maverickmachinist. You are right about most of the younger generation work ethics today. Apparently you have found something that most people go through their lives never finding, a job that you really love. The type of job isn't important as long as you enjoy what you do and do it the very best that you can.

Industries change with the changing times fueled by supply and demand. Some would lead you to believe that only skilled labor is affected by these trends. They never mention how many engineers and PHD's end up driving cabs or flipping burgers during such downsizing. After all, if we want to have a PITY PARTY we want ours to be the biggest and best PITY PARTY.

Some people are always looking at the glass as half full and/or the grass is always greener on the other side. Surround yourself with people that think and feel the way that you do and you will be successful. Surround yourself with the pessimist and they won't be happy until you feel as miserable as they do.

Contrary to some "Experts" wages are mostly based on supply & demand. Increased productivity, automated machinery, & new technologies have allowed us to make more with fewer people. This increases the supply of workers in relation to the demand. Wages go down. People change careers.

On the other hand, us "Baby Boomers" are approaching retirement age. The mass exodus from the workforce that is comming will create many worker shortages. Young people with skills may find their oportunities are limitless. The trick is to keep your eyes open & be flexible. A little hard work usually helps too.

Sorry for being so negative. I can only give my opinion into what I see as reality. IMO, the trade is in BIG trouble. You can disagree with me and I respect your opinions. That doesn't mean I should sit in the corner and keep my mouth shut, does it?

I think that is why this trade is in trouble. Too many people shut-up and put-up with B.S. wages and crap employment "benefit" packages. There are far too many "traditionalist's" that haven't moved with the times.

The glass if half-full when you realize the situation machinists are in. I'm a happy person by nature... I didn't walk into my shop with a negative attitude towards the work. The work is fine and I do enjoy it. The problem is $$$, the time it takes to earn more $$$, and the amount of $$$ you make once you're "there". For the time, effort, and requirements... IT SHOULD BE A LOT MORE!

E-stop, Son #2 is having problems right now. As he gets more experience his "wages" will increase exponentially in short order depending on the degree. I guarantee that he will surpass Son #1's earning potential in the next five years by a good margin, again that depends on the degree he earned. Especially, if he moves to a booming city with an advanced degree. Son #1 doesn't have these options. He is capped by the top step in whatever pay scale he is in, and sadly it doesn't vary much from region to region. I don't see any machinists making $35K out of trade school. I made $35K out of college in the military. My friends are making twice that now.

Here are my questions:

When I read that companies are having a hard time filling skilled labor positions and manufacturing is run on the basic economic principles of supply and demand, (I'm convinced its not), Why aren't machinists getting paid $20 an hour to start right now?

Did any of you see "The Deadliest Catch" on Discovery last night? I could see a lot of young folks moving to Alaska to get in on that. Hard work, High reward. Machining = Hard Work, Crap rewards.

Rugby,
You just told us in a recent post that it's okay for the owner of cnczone to protect his revenue stream by protecting his less than truthful advertisers. I believe your words were "whatever it takes to make a buck". Seems maybe your boss is just applying the same logic toward your job and pay. As they say, what's fair for the goose is fair for the gander.

Steve, No doubt...you are right. He wants to get rich like everyone else. He will have to look in the mirror everyday. He will have to suffer through the hiring of idiots that cost him more money than they make. I have an option to leave at anytime. That time is upon us.

The problem is where do you go in this trade. I don't have the experience or capital to go at it alone right now. I will need to punch the clock and pay my dues one way or another. I understand that.

I think its better to get out of the trade, and find a GOOD paying career. After I buy a house and can afford some money making equipment, I start a shop in my garage and go from there.

The reality of not being able to buy a house, while living paycheck to paycheck for the next 5 to 10 years has set in. That is if I was willing to "stick with it"... I'm not, and I assume there are many folks my age (26) that have come to the same conclusions about this trade. I have no debt other than a '99 four banger Toyota Tacoma.

If you love doing what you do - that is what motivates you, the money is a consequence of doing it better than anyone else can do (which is easy if they are just doing it for the money).

I have posted a number of times on this board about how well the motion / automation / machine building market is doing (at least in the world that I live in).

We have already done more business in 2005 that we did in all of 2004 (we have been growing 40% per year on average for the last 5 years).

A big chunk of this year is 5-Axis machining centers for aerospace applications. Another chunk is servicing the paper industry and the remainder is split among packaging, forest products and defence.

Our company has 6 more people today than it had 1 year ago and we are still looking for help to do the jobs we are landing.

When we ask our customers why they chose us - they for the most part say that we seem like we know what the hell we are doing better than everyone else and that it looks like we enjoy doing it. You don't get that with money, if money is the goal, you will never make it long term - money is the consequence.

Loving what you do is a good reason to stick with it. Money isn't everything. I know you have to be able to live, but you don't have to be rich to be happy. I know someone who was making $125,000 per year in midmanagement, but he was driven nuts everyday by upper managements' stupid decisions, and other fustrations. This man eventually became miserable. He tried to "not care" so that he could just keep his well paying job, but he just wasn't happy, and eventually quit. He now works much harder since he started his own shop and makes considerably less take home pay, and he's happy as can be.

At my last job I made 18.50 an hour. I was hired as a temp, told that I would be "tried out" for the first 90 days. The company was a joint venture between GE and Bayer.

For the first four months it was great. Everything was new, exciting, I was learning like mad. Reality however, was starting to set in. Too many cheifs, not enough indians...no respect due to lack of PhD...etc. No job offer...perfect review. They had to wait to the new fiscal year.

Six months later, new fiscal year. Still have to wait for "perm" employment. I used this at leverage and gained a $2.00/hr raise and a week paid vacation. They had made a mistake and taught me too much...and I had already learned to keep a research journal...just descriptive enough for the boss to read. Firing me would be his worst nightmare...my replacement would be constantly asking question. I had also been running the program, lots of responsibility. The "boss"...really didn't know what the hell he was doing. He was just the figurehead...I was the one that was talking at meetings, etc.

After eight months, I started getting depressed. At one year, I went in to counseling. I was put on antidepressants, but told that if I didn't change my lifestyle...there was really nothing I could do.

Meanwhile, my previous work ethic was starting to slip. I purposely started keeping a better notebook...hoping my boss would notice...if he fired me, I could collect unemployment, take a couple weeks off before I started a new job. No such luck. They just loved what I was doing, just not enough to offer me full time employment with GE benefits.

Meanwhile, I've got my resume out...applying for jobs, whatever...need to get the hell out.

At 18 months, I got an offer. $6.50 an hour to sell art supplies, part time, set my own schedule. I put in my notice a day later.

Moral of the story...the pay has nothing to do with the job. If you aren't happy, for any reason...get the hell out, and do it now. What to do depends on your situation, I started a business out of my in-laws garage making custom tools for local artists. I'm still not making as much as I was, but I was off the antidepressants within two weeks of leaving the job and haven't needed them since.

-Jacob

EXCELLENT post, Snowman. Congratulations.

I am a journeyman machinist. I spent 10 years in an R & D shop. Some days I had a lot of peace of mind because I knew what I was doing, other days I was bored out of my skull. Every year I heard the same song, no money for a raise. I finally quit and went to work for Bridgeport fixing CNC machines. I did this for a while, then moved to Florida where I ran a CNC shop at 14/hr. And the owner was not happy at paying so much! Had enough of Florida and went back into field service but in Alabama. At 30K per year salary, I was putting in 60 hours a week, never seeing my family. I enjoyed the challenge of different problems to solve every day but it was hard to be happy away from family. Eventually we hired more help at 30K or less gave them cell phones and my number and they were now CNC service technicians. My opinion is that this is a depressed occupation. Companies will pay what they can get away with. Federal Express in Memphis paid machinists 25 an hour years ago. Good union maybe? Mercedes (20 minutes from my home)pays its maintenance people 30 per hour plus great benefits. But be careful, if you are too smart the supervisors will not hire you at the final interview. I know. In defense of the small shop owner, his equipment costs a lot, tooling and materials will choke him, China will machine anything at 10 percent of his price. He would be better off buying a pizza oven. More than half of the mold shops in TN and Chicago have gone under. Places I have spoken to people about such issues. I recently heard that the wolrd is getting flat. Meaning that since this is a global economy, it will try and correct irregularities. In other words, the living standard of places like China will go up and ours will go down as we try and compete. The middle class is going away. I wonder who will pay the taxes? Bush just announced that he persuaded the Saudis to pump more oil but it will take a while. Too bad it will be sucked up by China and prices will not fall. My wife just became a realtor. If she can support us, I will be getting out of this business. I have been in it 33 years and I am getting too old to be crawling under, in, through, and on top of these machines. I have two sons. They will not be going into this field. Not even as a summer job. As my wife said (who did run a BOSS 8), it is too depressing. just my 2 cents.

George

George,
Just a thought, but why not stay in what you know and work for yourself instead of for someone else. Service rates are thru the roof for CNC repairs, and half the clowns the dealers have these days can't find a blown fuse in less than a half a day. You'd probably have little trouble finding customers, because in a business like you're in, people are typically dealing with people and not with companies. In other words, they know George has kept their stuff running for lots of years, and its incidental that George works for XYZ CNC Repair Co. I'm a firm believer myself that, although its not ethical to be recruiting customers while you're still getting a check from your current employer, the moment you leave the contract is complete. You did the work. They paid you to work. Anyone with a CNC is fair game for you at that point. Most anyone around the carolinas and georgia that runs a service operation is billing in the neighborhood of $100/hr. There's a guy in Greenville who's sharp and honest, working for himself and billing at about $70/hr, and most anyone who tries him one time and sees the difference in the final bill when you have a pro at $70 vs an amateur at $100 typically says bye bye to the dealer service organizations. Might be worth a thought as opposed to a new trade.