First CNC purchases - suggestions for Y-axis lathe & small 3+2 mill. Haas?

I'm currently looking at the feasibility of bringing our currently outsourced machining in-house, but trying to find the right machines. We work almost entirely with aluminium, with occasional steel fasteners and small parts. We're not a job shop, just looking to manufacture our own designs ourselves. Footprint is not an issue for the time being - may turn out to be down the track but not now.

Turning capacity needs to meet the following:
Y-axis/C-axis capable. Interpolation between the two would be very handy too - though as I'm not a machinist myself, I'm not sure whether that's a control/CAM issue or a hardware thing?
63mm (2.5") bar feed capable
Part lengths of up to 500mm (20") ideal. Nothing we currently make is more than 120mm long, but future plans include longer parts.
Unsure as to whether a secondary spindle is a good idea/necessary. Many of our parts require multiple setups otherwise, but thin walled aluminium (50mm diameter tubes, 1.3mm walls for example) - am I wasting my time with this? Seems like crushing the parts is likely to be an issue on the second spindle, unless we leave workholding material at the outer end of the first part after the first op, and part off later. Currently these parts sit at about 110mm long, max OD just under 60mm.

Milling capacity needs to meet the following:
5-axis capable, at least as a 3+2/4+1. No current need for complex 5-axis contouring but that's also partly because so far we've designed around largely orthogonal operations. My understanding is that most contouring work like that is also extremely slow (please correct me if I'm wrong) so we would typically try to design in such a way that we could avoid that.
Workpiece sizes are small. So far, all foreseeable parts would fit within a 100mm (4") cube quite comfortably. Larger parts may happen down the track but they aren't on the cards right now.

What I've looked at for the lathe:
Haas DS30SSY. Covers everything I need, but I seem to recall reading somewhere that the 2nd spindle on those isn't quite as useful as you'd expect it to be. Can anyone elaborate on this? The HFO sales rep up here in BC mentioned some weird thing about the turret tooling not actually aligning with centre on the 2nd spindle - that doesn't seem like it could be possible since, unless I'm retarded, the 2nd spindle has to be coaxial with the primary spindle in order to exchange parts? Tool holders on the back side of the turret in a different spot or something? Or have I somehow gotten my wires crossed? Also I notice that the "control type" listed for the sub spindle is listed as "positioning only" not "positioning and interpolated motion" as per the primary spindle. Does this mean no C-axis on the 2nd spindle, or no Y-axis too? Any other feedback on the Haas lathes in general? Seem like the lowest-priced options I've found - a few people have mentioned that most Haas stuff isn't really built for 24/7 production, but that isn't likely to be an issue for us in the immediate future.

Okuma Genos L200E-MY: bit more expensive than the Haas, from memory I think the rep (who is also the Haas rep) said they're typically about 15% more than the Haas equivalent. This is only a single-spindle unit too, to get a sub spindle it'd be the L300-MYW which only has a 150mm workpiece length - not really long enough for what I'm looking to do. I have way less info on these than I do the Haas.

Haven't had a proper chance to familiarise myself with their range but the Doosan Pumas look decent too and almost everything I've read about them has been positive. How do they stack up price wise? What else should I check out? Anticipate them running 50-60hrs per week, not 24/7 operation.


As far as milling goes, I've checked out the following setups:

Haas DT-1 with 100mm trunnion 5th axis
Haas VF2TR, with the 160mm trunnion table 5th axis
DMG Mori Milltap 700 with 5th axis option. Not entirely sure what pricing is on this but probably a bit more than the DT-1 or the VF2TR? Without the 5th axis option it looks to actually be fairly comparable with the Haas units.
DMG Mori EcoMill 50. 5 axis standard, reasonably cheap for what it is, but more expensive than the others

Heard a few bad things about the Haas trunnions not being particularly robust. Mori's reputation is a bit better but the EcoMill and Milltap machines seem to be built for the lower-end market.

Feedback? Anything else I should be checking out? Doosan? Fanuc Robodrill?

If you put a trunnion on a 3axis machine you eat up alot of table space and Z travel in my opinion. Of course some machines will be better designed to handle this, I am just not sure what those are. I think for the price of a Haas vf3 and a trunnion you could probably get their UMC 5 axis machine, or be comparable in price anyways. There are pros and cons to this, but as to the 5 axis part of it, you have alot more room to work with on a UMC. The obvious downfall is that you lose the 'flat' (3axis) table option you have by removing a trunnion from a regular vmc.

edit: I see you said your parts for milling are around a 4" cube right now. The UMC might be overkill on size for that, but you have room to grow then.

Please dont take this the wrong way, but ..
How good and experienced is your operator with various controls, cam, y axis, DS, 5-axis stuff ?

2. Are you *sure* ?
3. Are you *right* ?

Have you budgeted 3 months of practice and training, at the start, with zero production ?

Getting a DS + Y setup, running smoothly, with barfeeder, is easily a 1 week to 1 month operation for experts on that barfeeder & control, depending.

Running a DS+Y system efficiently is not hard, as such.
It requires a smart, diligent, capable person.

With a, easily, 10.000 - 30.000 $ per-lesson cost on the "oops" stuff.

You can do hand code + macros, and it will work.
You can a smart cam + verify, and it will work.
Note the sw + cam can easily cost 20-30k.

Note learning the cam, for someone already expert, will still be easily 200-400 hours of work.
Not learning it will cost you 2/3 of productivity, and some of those 10.000$ each lessons.

Have you figured on the, easily, 20.000-30.000 on ancillary stuff to run the machines ?
Racking, storage, lifts, packing, auto saws, cleaning, washing, pallets/boxes/etc ?
Metrology ?

20k for tooling ?

A typical DS30Y, will eat 20k in tooling with minimal live tooling.
+ 10 k metrology
+ 30 cam + training + 6 weeks minimum FOR DS+Y+3+2 axis
+ 20 k ancillary stuff + 6 weeks work to get it done

Reasonable minimums, professionally done, are thus == 80 k, + 4-5 months work, + machine cost(s).

The machine does not really matter, at all, at this point.
Any of the solutions can work, and will work, depending.

Your costs, and thus profits, will depend on productivity.
The productivity will be limited by the weakest part, and not the average, or the best part.

Logistics->machining->logistics

Your 4/5 axis needs a machine, maybe, one-two sizes up for clearance.
Mockup the trunnion and the machine table.
Vice and workholding.
Tool reach.

Ie 100 mm cube will likely work, but 120 mm may not.
It might matter.

Just saying that the machine is not necessarily the nr1 issue here.
Apologies if you already know all this, but You did ask, and so..

HANERMO = hit the nail on the head ! Better have your BIG BOY shoes on when taking off this fast, just my $.02.

I was in a similar situation to you in late 2013 / early 2014.
We are an engineering firm that designs custom manufacturing systems, robots, and a whole slew of other stuff. We had been sending all machine work out to vendors, and had been noticing a trend of declining quality, slipping schedule and overall frustration.

Alot of what we do, especially with the robotics work, goes thru very short design / iteration cycles. We went thru times where we would design a part, wait 3-4 weeks for a shop to machine one, then find out within minutes of it arriving that it doesn't work.
Stuff like this was killer.

We started bringing stuff in on a very small scale: we bought a 3 axis prototrak mill. We like to call this move "the gateway drug"
Although limited in what we could do with it, we found that bringing this type of work in-house really could be efficient.
We found the free version of HSMworks online and gave that a shot. I was programming simple parts within minutes of downloading the software.
Did the trial of full version and decided it would be a good fit.

Next we decided we needed a lathe. We started looking at trak lathes, but then someone said "lets take a look at some Haas turning centers".
We started looking at an ST-10, then quickly decided that for the type of work we do, a std 2 axis lathe would be somewhat limited in usefulness. We then started looking at a ST-10y, decided it was too small, then settled on an ST-20Y.

I initially went to vocational high school for machining, then on to college as a manufacturing engineer. My job since then had been much more of a mechanical engineer though, designing systems and such. I had never worked on a complicated 4 axis lathe, and kinda just jumped in head first.

We also quickly decided that we needed a real VMC to be any sort of efficient, so we ordered a VF-4ss, i think before the lathe even arrived.
We have since added 2 more haas VMCs, a VF-2ss & DT-1.

It has been alot of money spent, alot of invested time, and a few broken tools, but I truly believe it has been worth every penny.

Take it slow when you get your equipment and good luck.

Steve

hanermo said:

Please dont take this the wrong way, but ..

Have you figured on the, easily, 20.000-30.000 on ancillary stuff to run the machines ?
Racking, storage, lifts, packing, auto saws, cleaning, washing, pallets/boxes/etc ?
Metrology ?

20k for tooling ?

A typical DS30Y, will eat 20k in tooling with minimal live tooling.
+ 10 k metrology
+ 30 cam + training + 6 weeks minimum FOR DS+Y+3+2 axis
+ 20 k ancillary stuff + 6 weeks work to get it done

Reasonable minimums, professionally done, are thus == 80 k, + 4-5 months work, + machine cost(s).

Just saying that the machine is not necessarily the nr1 issue here.
Apologies if you already know all this, but You did ask, and so..

Click to expand...

I think you're a tad low on the tooling costs.

Live tool blocks (new) up here run upwards of $5k a piece.
Static tooling blocks for each position will run him $20k new.
Between that, turning tools, drills, end mills, jaws he'll eat another $10k. (Just went through this so prices are pretty recent)

With a few live toys he's looking at $60K CAD easy for basic LATHE tools alone.

Plus $20k for metrology (Things are only as good as you can inspect eh?)

Mill stuff at least another $20k.

If he doubles the costs of the machines that's probably ball park what its going to cost by the time he's actually doing a run of parts.

Awesome response hanermo, really appreciate the depth of your feedback there.

hanermo said:

Please dont take this the wrong way, but ..
How good and experienced is your operator with various controls, cam, y axis, DS, 5-axis stuff ?

2. Are you *sure* ?
3. Are you *right* ?

Don't have an answer for that right now - we would be hiring an experienced machinist for this role. As you say, being truly certain of their skillset is pretty difficult. Any suggestions for how I could test people on that when hiring?

Have you budgeted 3 months of practice and training, at the start, with zero production ?

Getting a DS + Y setup, running smoothly, with barfeeder, is easily a 1 week to 1 month operation for experts on that barfeeder & control, depending.

Running a DS+Y system efficiently is not hard, as such.
It requires a smart, diligent, capable person.

With a, easily, 10.000 - 30.000 $ per-lesson cost on the "oops" stuff.

You can do hand code + macros, and it will work.
You can a smart cam + verify, and it will work.
Note the sw + cam can easily cost 20-30k.

Note learning the cam, for someone already expert, will still be easily 200-400 hours of work.
Not learning it will cost you 2/3 of productivity, and some of those 10.000$ each lessons.

Have you figured on the, easily, 20.000-30.000 on ancillary stuff to run the machines ?
Racking, storage, lifts, packing, auto saws, cleaning, washing, pallets/boxes/etc ?
Metrology ?

20k for tooling ?

A typical DS30Y, will eat 20k in tooling with minimal live tooling.
+ 10 k metrology
+ 30 cam + training + 6 weeks minimum FOR DS+Y+3+2 axis
+ 20 k ancillary stuff + 6 weeks work to get it done

Reasonable minimums, professionally done, are thus == 80 k, + 4-5 months work, + machine cost(s).

The machine does not really matter, at all, at this point.
Any of the solutions can work, and will work, depending.

Your costs, and thus profits, will depend on productivity.
The productivity will be limited by the weakest part, and not the average, or the best part.

Logistics->machining->logistics

Your 4/5 axis needs a machine, maybe, one-two sizes up for clearance.
Mockup the trunnion and the machine table.
Vice and workholding.
Tool reach.

Ie 100 mm cube will likely work, but 120 mm may not.
It might matter.

Just saying that the machine is not necessarily the nr1 issue here.
Apologies if you already know all this, but You did ask, and so..

Click to expand...

Thanks - yeah we have definitely considered the tooling costs, I was expecting more like 40k (even that could be quite low) between the mill and the lathe. Was expecting to have to lay out about 25k for CAM as well (based again on the assumption of hiring someone who is already experienced with whichever package we decide to go with - seems like MC or Gibbs are the main choices), I think this is in the ballpark of what's realistic. Metrology we have also estimated approx 10k for, although as far as output measurement goes we're already set up reasonably well for everything except bore mics. Maybe you're also referring to probes and whatnot? They're something I am aware are $$$ but haven't specifically itemised in our planning budget. Good point on the racking and storage costs though, they are something I have not tried to calculate so far, and that stuff always gets out of hand.

Can you also clarify on the CAM front - you said learning the CAM could be 200-400hrs of work for someone who's already an expert? Maybe I'm being unrealistic but it seems to me that someone who's already proficient in Mastercam or Gibbs (we haven't chosen the CAM package yet either - I will probably select that based on the feedback/preference of whoever I hire) with these operations should be able to be up and running even if at reduced output reasonably quickly?

I was expecting approx 3 weeks to install & commission the machines. Bit airy-fairy about that, would be once again somewhat reliant on finding a capable & experienced machinist to take charge of that.

With all that said, our biggest issue right now isn't outright productivity - everything we have produced so far this year adds up to a total of maybe 2 months' worth of single machine time. Our issue is that we develop stuff and need multiple prototype iterations, with small-ish production runs (lately around 300-600 pieces at a time). Outsourcing the prototyping is too slow and we have already lost market advantage on some of our products in the past because of a 2 year development time that could have been 2 months had we been able to run the iterations ourselves. We've also run into issues with prototypes not coming out the same as production units because either the production units were produced by a different company (long story, expensive lesson) or because the contract machinists made unjustified assumptions about what would work for production, when producing the protos. We want to be able to do everything on the same machines so that there is no uncertainty, and we can control every variable.

ManualEd said:

I think you're a tad low on the tooling costs.

Live tool blocks (new) up here run upwards of $5k a piece.
Static tooling blocks for each position will run him $20k new.
Between that, turning tools, drills, end mills, jaws he'll eat another $10k. (Just went through this so prices are pretty recent)

With a few live toys he's looking at $60K CAD easy for basic LATHE tools alone.

Plus $20k for metrology (Things are only as good as you can inspect eh?)

Mill stuff at least another $20k.

If he doubles the costs of the machines that's probably ball park what its going to cost by the time he's actually doing a run of parts.

Click to expand...

Thanks, good to know. FYI despite being in Canada all prices/expenditure I'm quoting has been in USD so far. I'm expecting total costs to hit about 350k US (420ish CAD).

I am a Haas fan, and I have a few on my floor.

Good bang for the buck, good service...but I'd be looking elsewhere if I needed something more then simple 4th axis mills and 2 axis lathes.

I'd also go to the distributors and let them show you packages to make the parts you want done. Have them verify cycle times...verify their service network in your area, parts tech support. Have the machine tool is great, but if your stuck and down...how long till they get you up and running again.

Vorsprung said:

Turning capacity needs to meet the following:
Y-axis/C-axis capable. Interpolation between the two would be very handy too - though as I'm not a machinist myself, I'm not sure whether that's a control/CAM issue or a hardware thing?
63mm (2.5") bar feed capable
Part lengths of up to 500mm (20") ideal. Nothing we currently make is more than 120mm long, but future plans include longer parts.
Unsure as to whether a secondary spindle is a good idea/necessary. Many of our parts require multiple setups otherwise, but thin walled aluminium (50mm diameter tubes, 1.3mm walls for example) - am I wasting my time with this? Seems like crushing the parts is likely to be an issue on the second spindle, unless we leave workholding material at the outer end of the first part after the first op, and part off later. Currently these parts sit at about 110mm long, max OD just under 60mm.

Milling capacity needs to meet the following:
5-axis capable, at least as a 3+2/4+1.

Click to expand...

If you are thinking of a Y axis mill-turn lathe with a subspindle, then perhaps invest in a bit more capability on the lathe and eliminate the need for a separate 5 axis mill altogether.

A small Mazak Integrex i-100 sounds like it would work great. No, I'm not a Mazak salesman, but have happily ran Mazaks for the past 18 years.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQEserf7snk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9F3A1Id2Cw

Go with the Okuma lathe. Haas uses shims for lining stuff up and apparently it's a nightmare to realign after a crash. I can tell you from recent experience that lining the turret, spindle and tailstock up is no big deal on the Okuma. I see that your in Whistler, something to remember to is that the tech's start their $100+/hour rate from the moment they leave the shop in Richmond to the time they get back. Not unreasonable but still expensive.
Jordy

I have an L200E-MY. I like it a lot, but I often wish I'd gotten an L300MYW with the subspindle.

The mill you want is a Brother M140X1. Probably the best bang for the buck you can get in a 4+1 if the parts fit, which in your case they do. As a bonus, it turns. If you're looking at drill/tap machines generally, think Brother and Fanuc, not Haas and DMG. You can do a LOT with a 30 taper, especially dual contact.

You might want to bring in a consultant.. Someone proficient in multi axis CNC, Prototyping and production but not a machine salesman. You sound like you know what your talking about so dont think im trying to downplay your intelligence here because ultimately im sure you will figure it all out but with the volumes you are currently manufacturing I think it would be time and money well spent.

I once , no , twice had a very complicated part , I talked to a VERY good machine tool company , had them quote a machine to run the parts , I asked them also to do a time study , which they did , at that point I said tell you what ? You guys are so sure of yourself and your machine , I will buy the machine if you will tool it up , do a first piece runoff , which they did ! I have done that on two occasions , the first was my first swiss machine , the second was a double turret lathe . Worked great for them, as well as me . Just a thought.

From personal experience, I would avoid a VF2 with the 160 trunnion. It takes up too much Z travel meaning that tool changes are exciting (to say the least) and the long tools needed to do some 5 axis features may not have enough room to change.
We bought our VF2/160 trunnion without actually seeing it first.

Bad idea!

Just as one example, the trunnion has to be installed on the forward table T slot; not on table center as one would think. As a result, usable Y travel is very limited.

Go with a VF3 or VF4 if you want to use the trunnion effectively.

A VF2 with trunnion is 5 axis for sure, but very limited practically IMO.

I agree with Philabuster...

Integrex or Mori equivalent B axis lathe

Philabuster said:

If you are thinking of a Y axis mill-turn lathe with a subspindle, then perhaps invest in a bit more capability on the lathe and eliminate the need for a separate 5 axis mill altogether.

A small Mazak Integrex i-100 sounds like it would work great. No, I'm not a Mazak salesman, but have happily ran Mazaks for the past 18 years.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQEserf7snk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9F3A1Id2Cw

Click to expand...

^^^what he said^^^^^
there is a macturn 350 on machinetools.com for 150k, which will blow the doors off fake y-axis mazak integrexs..especially the tiny 100. whats that got, 1/4" travel y axis?
1. one machine to tool up
2. one machine to learn
3. do everything listed.
4. cheapest solution
5. most efficient/accurate for production of many things

the bad
can be very overwhelming to setup with all that stuff going on. support is king, here.

Philabuster said:

If you are thinking of a Y axis mill-turn lathe with a subspindle, then perhaps invest in a bit more capability on the lathe and eliminate the need for a separate 5 axis mill altogether.

A small Mazak Integrex i-100 sounds like it would work great. No, I'm not a Mazak salesman, but have happily ran Mazaks for the past 18 years.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQEserf7snk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9F3A1Id2Cw

Click to expand...

Ha, I've actually owned the part they were making in that first video! Small world. Anyway, that thing does look pretty incredible. Any idea on pricing?

Vorsprung said:

Thanks, good to know. FYI despite being in Canada all prices/expenditure I'm quoting has been in USD so far. I'm expecting total costs to hit about 350k US (420ish CAD).

Click to expand...

No one wants to quote in CAD because in a week it'll be worth 10% less

Don't get too hung up on a Haas.
I've heard rumours that David Lowey is going to be a direct representative for Mazak in BC soon. He should be able to offer killer deals on them.

Hell, he might even have a line on someone looking to get rid of an Integrex or something.

If not a Mazak, I'd be in the Okuma boat. Thomas Skinner is right down the Sea to Sky from you, and they'd probably love to sell a machine. They had a live tooled (no Y) Genos 300M for $100K USD.

I'm looking at very similar machines as you. I'm probably going with a Sankyo RT080 rotary tilt table in a Brother S700X1 or the similar Fanuc Robodrill. The RT080 is small enough to fit on one-half of the table and leave you the other half of the table for a 4" / 6" vise or for other use. The RT080 can support up to 100mm diameter parts.

For the lathe, I'm looking at Mazak QTU250MSY, Doosan Lynx 220 LSYA or Takisawa TCY-160YS. I eliminated the Okuma you mentioned as the turning length was too short. The Haas would be acceptable, the control is awesome, but since I can afford something better, I will.