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Geno 460/560 owners. Looking at buying one

D

Djstorm100

Cast Iron
Joined
Jul 26, 2014
Location
Richmond
I currently have a vf2ss but needing more power, rigidity and just faster.

I'm limited on power at my panel, so something like the MP1000 TSC will not work.

What I have quoted so far:
560
RMP400
LNS NM250 conveyor
200psi TSC (looking at chip breaker 500psi too)
Koma RNE-200R
Reinshaw Gui interface
Reinshaw Inspection Plus (Haas has it and I do like it)


The gripes I've heard of is the flood with the nozzles all open is pretty lack-lustering. The chips collecting in the cutting area (alum is mostly what I cut)

I'm curious of the other issues that are the "cons" or "dislikes". I know it's a beast of a machine and a great one at that. Just wanting to making sure I'm dotting my I and crossing my T's.

I'm also looking at Doosan 4500s
 
I have a 2015 M560V. At the time chip washing coolant was not an option. The chip evacuation SUCKS. Lots of flat surfaces plus poor coolant equals a huge mess of chips that frequently stall the augers once we scrape them out at the end of a program.

It (chip management) is shamefully bad. I replaced the loklines for spindle flood coolant with copper tubing, which helped a lot with pressure and aiming, but the pump is still pretty pathetic, and it only floods one side of the spindle. We may build a halo ring for coolant and upgrade the pump at some point.

Chips and coolant also fall out the door constantly, and the tool changer arm gets freaking covered in chips, which are constantly threatening to lodge into the spindle during a tool change.

Besides the absolutely embarrassing chip management, it is a great machine. The power and rigidity are fantastic for its class. The spindle is a noisy SOB, but has good flexibility and is problem free. Personally I'm not too fond of the OSP controller, but it gets the job done, and is certainly an upgrade from the HAAS controller.



My only advice on options:

1. Get any and all chip managment options.

2. Strongly consider supernurbs if you do a lot of 3d work. Hi-Cut is okay, but not great compared to the surfacing capabilities of other premium builders. When I got it quoted it was nearly 20k, and while it may have paid for itself by now had we included it in the original purchase, it's really hard to justify spending that kind of cash after-the-fact.

3. Get auto-greasing if that is an option. Was not available when we purchased, and manually greasing the ballscrews every 200 hours is a major PITA.

4. If you anticipate needing a 5th axis, GET IT NOW! I thought it would be an easy retrofit like a HAAS, but it is not. They can't just add another drive for the 5th, they have to start over from scratch. I got a quote to replace our 4th with a 4th/5th, and it cost nearly as much as a new machine.
 
The spindle is noisy? We run ours at high RMP taking light cuts mostly for molds in hardened steel as well as p20. I thought the spindle was very quiet. We haven't pushed it hard in aluminum yet, only had it 6 months or so.
 
I second everything said about the coolant pump. I have done surfacing with this machine and was pleased with the results. Power? Plenty. Rigidity? Absolutely. The control took some getting used to but I love it now.
 
Get the 500 PSI TSC minimum.
Greasing the axes every 200 hours takes literally 5 minutes, it's nothing, and you have to remove 1 cover (4 little flat head screws) right there on the Z axis. It's right in front of your face.And the other grease fittings are exposed for Y axis. And it's every 200 hours of axis movement,it doesn't count idle time.
The augers can't handle a TON of big,long chips, and by big I'm talking a dynamic path that is something like 1-1/2 deep and a 10% stepover. Get an end mill with a chip breaker and it will solve that issue.We use the Destiny Diamondback. The Kennametal KOR5 has a chip breaker also.
We have 3 of these machines, no issues with coolant pressure. I'm not sure of your expectations with all of the nozzles open but it's not bad.
 
What's the deal with Supernurbs? Is that to actually program with nurbs or is it a feature that turns a linear toolpath into nurbs inside the control? Or does it have nothing to do with actual nurbs and is kind of like nano smoothing?

I've always said if I were to get a new machine (which would have to be a "value line") it would be a Genos mill. That said I also wouldn't mind hearing what owners/users have to say about them.
 
Mtndew said:
Get the 500 PSI TSC minimum.
Greasing the axes every 200 hours takes literally 5 minutes, it's nothing, and you have to remove 1 cover (4 little flat head screws) right there on the Z axis. It's right in front of your face.And the other grease fittings are exposed for Y axis. And it's every 200 hours of axis movement,it doesn't count idle time.
The augers can't handle a TON of big,long chips, and by big I'm talking a dynamic path that is something like 1-1/2 deep and a 10% stepover. Get an end mill with a chip breaker and it will solve that issue.We use the Destiny Diamondback. The Kennametal KOR5 has a chip breaker also.
We have 3 of these machines, no issues with coolant pressure. I'm not sure of your expectations with all of the nozzles open but it's not bad.
Click to expand...


I have a newer Haas, that I've pretty much sold. I'm between a Okuma and Doosan. I'm a small shop, not high volume. Not gonna lie, the okuma price for parts makes me nervous as hell.
 
I have 3 560s ranging from 2016-2020. The new ATC door is better than the previous model. The coolant pumps are "meh" but I have 1000PSI on all of them so it's not really a problem.

It can make a lot of chips really quickly so getting rid of them can be a little bit of a nuisance but no worse than other machines.

They have all been rock solid and I am notoriously hard on things.

It's going to be night and day from what you have now.
 
Djstorm100 said:
I have a newer Haas, that I've pretty much sold. I'm between a Okuma and Doosan. I'm a small shop, not high volume. Not gonna lie, the okuma price for parts makes me nervous as hell.
Click to expand...

It's worth it. The control is very user friendly, not like that basic Fanuc outdated garbage control they keep pushing out there.
It will run circles around a Doosan, and eat that Haas for lunch. ;)
We're not high volume either, just a job shop.
 
Hardplates said:
What's the deal with Supernurbs? Is that to actually program with nurbs or is it a feature that turns a linear toolpath into nurbs inside the control? Or does it have nothing to do with actual nurbs and is kind of like nano smoothing?

I've always said if I were to get a new machine (which would have to be a "value line") it would be a Genos mill. That said I also wouldn't mind hearing what owners/users have to say about them.
Click to expand...

"With Super-NURBS, the OSP control projects a predetermined tolerance band that creates a spline considered to be the best fit for the job. This eliminates redundancies and allows for a faster and smoother tool path (see Figure 1). With less data to crunch, movements are sped up—while maintaining a high level of accuracy to generate high-quality surface finishes."

CNC Machining | Super-NURBS Completes Parts on the Machine | Okuma
 
Mtndew said:
Greasing the axes every 200 hours takes literally 5 minutes, it's nothing, and you have to remove 1 cover (4 little flat head screws) right there on the Z axis. It's right in front of your face.And the other grease fittings are exposed for Y axis. And it's every 200 hours of axis movement,it doesn't count idle time.
Click to expand...


200 hours goes fast when we are in production. That's 3 times a month. It's not a huge deal, but I'd happily pay a little more to not worry about physically greasing and changing the stupid timer parameter constantly.
 
Mtndew said:
The augers can't handle a TON of big,long chips, and by big I'm talking a dynamic path that is something like 1-1/2 deep and a 10% stepover. Get an end mill with a chip breaker and it will solve that issue.We use the Destiny Diamondback. The Kennametal KOR5 has a chip breaker also.
Click to expand...

The chip managment is a problem. I have run a lot of machines, and only the HAAS's had worse chip management than this Okuma. Chip breakers help, but they don't fix the flat way covers, flat corners, leaky door, absent chip wash, and tool changer arm that is directly in line with the spindle on the side that doesn't have spindle coolant.

Besides, not every process can be done with HSM. The machine will run a high feed tool in 4140 all day with fabulous results, but even pulling 6's and 9's, with steel we have to build in M0's to clear the chips, or else they will start crunching the way covers. And when we drag all the chips into the trough at once it will stall the augers. That is a shitty design.

Again - great machine, and good value. I just wish we could all get onboard to force Okuma to make a few quality of life improvements.

The kind of crap pictured is a constant problem, and not always something we can program around. I have worked on many verticals where this wasn't an issue. Chip management should be the last thing one of our programmers has to worry about, not one of the first.


20200613_122028.jpg
 
PegroProX440 said:
The spindle is noisy? We run ours at high RMP taking light cuts mostly for molds in hardened steel as well as p20. I thought the spindle was very quiet. We haven't pushed it hard in aluminum yet, only had it 6 months or so.
Click to expand...

Depends on your context. It makes way more noise at 15k than our hsk machines at 20k. It's a good spindle though. We run it at 15k for hours at a time, then switch over to aggressive roughing cuts with zero issues. Just noisy!
 
I know you shouldn't have to on a new machine but it looks like adding a pump and installing a constant washdown system would solve most of the problems. I'd think the machine should have a couple spare m codes to implement a washdown.

It doesn't take much pressure or volume when the washdown is constant.
 
boosted said:
The chip managment is a problem. I have run a lot of machines, and only the HAAS's had worse chip management than this Okuma. Chip breakers help, but they don't fix the flat way covers, flat corners, leaky door, absent chip wash, and tool changer arm that is directly in line with the spindle on the side that doesn't have spindle coolant.

Besides, not every process can be done with HSM. The machine will run a high feed tool in 4140 all day with fabulous results, but even pulling 6's and 9's, with steel we have to build in M0's to clear the chips, or else they will start crunching the way covers. And when we drag all the chips into the trough at once it will stall the augers. That is a shitty design.

Again - great machine, and good value. I just wish we could all get onboard to force Okuma to make a few quality of life improvements.

The kind of crap pictured is a constant problem, and not always something we can program around. I have worked on many verticals where this wasn't an issue. Chip management should be the last thing one of our programmers has to worry about, not one of the first.


View attachment 316502
Click to expand...

I agree they could add some QOL here and there.
As for that picture though, that's the fault of a lazy operator and not the machine. Letting the chips pile up that high is just silly.
 
Hardplates said:
I know you shouldn't have to on a new machine but it looks like adding a pump and installing a constant washdown system would solve most of the problems. I'd think the machine should have a couple spare m codes to implement a washdown.

It doesn't take much pressure or volume when the washdown is constant.
Click to expand...

If you purchase a machine with a HP unit you will end up getting spare M codes for that.
 
Mtndew said:
I agree they could add some QOL here and there.
As for that picture though, that's the fault of a lazy operator and not the machine. Letting the chips pile up that high is just silly.
Click to expand...

LOL, are you kidding? We run lights out almost every day. You expect somebody to stand there and watch it? :eek:

Our other machines very, very rarely require M0's to clear chips, yet it is a constant problem with the 560.

I agree with Hardplates that we can probably fix the problem with some modifications. However, the question was what options to get, and I want to make it clear that any improvements over the basic chip handling are a good idea. :cheers:
 
Mtndew said:
So it's safe to assume that the part in your picture isn't the one where you're running lights out then.
Click to expand...

You bet we ran those lights out.

I am just annoyed that chip management when running lights out (or lights on for that matter) is way more of an issue on that machine than it should be. Not sure why that is a contentious point for you.
 
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