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    Default Genos M560 options

    Hey guys, we're in the market for a couple new VMC's. A 60x30" and a 40x20" machine. I think I've narrowed down the 40x20 to the m560. So my question is to you guys that have one is what options are a must have? We're a job shop and a run of a 100 parts all the same is a lot for us.
    I was quoted a machine with high column spec +200MM.
    Generic 4th axis I/F
    Machining NAVI M-G
    Shower coolant
    TSC 213psi
    Renishaw RMP600
    Inspection plus software

    Not sure How I feel about the high column.
    We don't have a 4th but I would like to get one eventually
    Is shower coolant worth almost 5k?
    Don't have tsc on our currant machines but really want it on a new one
    If I go with the Renishaw probe and software I think I would want the RTS tool setter to go with it.
    We do some surfacing so I think I would want the Supernurbs also

    So what's your thoughts? Thanks

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    SuperNurbs is $20k, so make sure you REALLY need it. The HiCut Pro is really,really good. If you're doing molds then you definitely want SuperNurbs.
    We have 3 of the 560's and none have the shower option. We're a job shop also. Never needed the shower.
    TSC is a must have, we have the 500psi tanks.
    Do you need the Navi? For the price it's not worth it for us.
    4th axis is SO nice, look at a Tsudakoma (around $25k with tailstock).

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    I'm not sure that I do really need supernurbs but I know the surfaces that I do on the junkford look a lot nicer when I put the fanuc 18M in AICC mode. But than again I can get decent surfaces on the old Mori mv-80 with a fanuc 11M. Just take a lot longer.
    Probably don't need the shower
    I've never been around the Navi, He just put it on the quote. But looking at it I think I'll be able to tell if the tool is chattering or not
    Do you know the price difference between 213, 500 and 1000psi? Thanks

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtndew View Post
    SuperNurbs is $20k, so make sure you REALLY need it. The HiCut Pro is really,really good. If you're doing molds then you definitely want SuperNurbs.
    We have 3 of the 560's and none have the shower option. We're a job shop also. Never needed the shower.
    TSC is a must have, we have the 500psi tanks.
    Do you need the Navi? For the price it's not worth it for us.
    4th axis is SO nice, look at a Tsudakoma (around $25k with tailstock).
    Do any of your 560's have the high column spec? And do you have probes/tool setters on them? Thanks

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    Quote Originally Posted by CNC Farming View Post
    I'm not sure that I do really need supernurbs but I know the surfaces that I do on the junkford look a lot nicer when I put the fanuc 18M in AICC mode.
    HiCut Pro is very good, easily on par with Fanuc's best look-ahed. SuperNURBS (just like Fanuc's NURBS) is a different animal geared for very high-end mold applications.

    Part of the issue is that it's hard to suss out what applications SuperNURBS really shins on beyond anecdotal evidence. I know two M560 owners who do lots of 3D milling, one has SuperNURBS, one doesn't. The trouble is that the guys who have SuperNURBS never run programs in HiCut, and the guys with HiCut have never compared against SuperNURBS. Having said that, take a look at FrontlineFabrication; he's running a LOT of 3D machining in aluminum on an M560V with HiCut. According to him, HiCut is keeping up with the maximum parameters of the tooling without any issues and SuperNURBS would provide no advantage.

    You can always add SuperNURBS later if you find your parts and your tooling aren't getting what they need from the machine's motion control once you get it on the shop floor and start cutting. If you want to CYA, I might have the vendor lock in the SuperNURBS price at the sale, with 6 months of coverage for a free install if you decide you need it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkoenig View Post
    HiCut Pro is very good, easily on par with Fanuc's best look-ahed. SuperNURBS (just like Fanuc's NURBS) is a different animal geared for very high-end mold applications.

    Part of the issue is that it's hard to suss out what applications SuperNURBS really shins on beyond anecdotal evidence. I know two M560 owners who do lots of 3D milling, one has SuperNURBS, one doesn't. The trouble is that the guys who have SuperNURBS never run programs in HiCut, and the guys with HiCut have never compared against SuperNURBS. Having said that, take a look at FrontlineFabrication; he's running a LOT of 3D machining in aluminum on an M560V with HiCut. According to him, HiCut is keeping up with the maximum parameters of the tooling without any issues and SuperNURBS would provide no advantage.

    You can always add SuperNURBS later if you find your parts and your tooling aren't getting what they need from the machine's motion control once you get it on the shop floor and start cutting. If you want to CYA, I might have the vendor lock in the SuperNURBS price at the sale, with 6 months of coverage for a free install if you decide you need it.
    Thank you Gkoenig. Sounds like Hi-cut pro would be just fine for the surfaces we do. And it also looks like hi-cut pro comes standard?

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    Quote Originally Posted by CNC Farming View Post
    And it also looks like hi-cut pro comes standard?
    It's the standard on the OSP300 control.

    Ditch the shower coolant. To clean out the machine, you'r better off spending $100 on a nice T-valve fitting at the primary coolant pump and fitting a wash down hose to use at the end of the day to clean chips out. Totally not worth $5k.

    You DO want the tool setter.
    You probably DON'T need Machining NAVI.
    You DO want a 4th if you're taking job shop work...
    You WILL hurt when Okuma tells you it's $20k for the 4th, but another $7k for them to fit it (GRRRR!)

    TSC pressure is dependent on what you're doing. If you're just looking to get better coolant coverage on end mills and facing, I think the 213PSI TSC will do that for you. The higher pressures really come into play when you're doing drilling (smaller holes == higher pressure). In a production environment, the ROI works out very quickly in favor of TSC, but in a job shop? Doing ~100 part runs? You need to ask yourself if you're going to be investing $150+ in application specific drills to cover the jobs you've got, and if shaving 15 seconds off each cycle is really going to pay back the $10k TSC + $150 drill investment. For short runs? I think high-quality parabolic flute drills are probably a better ROI than TSC.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CNC Farming View Post
    Do any of your 560's have the high column spec? And do you have probes/tool setters on them? Thanks
    No, standard columns, and we don't have probes or touch setters on them.
    Our next will will have that if I can convince the boss.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CNC Farming View Post
    Do any of your 560's have the high column spec? And do you have probes/tool setters on them? Thanks
    I have an M560 - also 500 psi TSC. I have the Renishaw probe / contact tool setter. Works great.

    As for the high column - keep in mind that even without the high column option, you can't put the spindle nose on the table. High column doesn't add Z-travel - just raises the whole top half of the machine. So with the high column option, you could be stuck using long tool holders if you don't have the 4th axis installed...

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkoenig View Post
    It's the standard on the OSP300 control.

    Ditch the shower coolant. To clean out the machine, you'r better off spending $100 on a nice T-valve fitting at the primary coolant pump and fitting a wash down hose to use at the end of the day to clean chips out. Totally not worth $5k.

    You DO want the tool setter.
    You probably DON'T need Machining NAVI.
    You DO want a 4th if you're taking job shop work...
    You WILL hurt when Okuma tells you it's $20k for the 4th, but another $7k for them to fit it (GRRRR!)

    TSC pressure is dependent on what you're doing. If you're just looking to get better coolant coverage on end mills and facing, I think the 213PSI TSC will do that for you. The higher pressures really come into play when you're doing drilling (smaller holes == higher pressure). In a production environment, the ROI works out very quickly in favor of TSC, but in a job shop? Doing ~100 part runs? You need to ask yourself if you're going to be investing $150+ in application specific drills to cover the jobs you've got, and if shaving 15 seconds off each cycle is really going to pay back the $10k TSC + $150 drill investment. For short runs? I think high-quality parabolic flute drills are probably a better ROI than TSC.
    The 500psi is definitely the way to go. We have the 200psi on one of our other vmc's (Hyundai-Kia) and it's not enough at times.
    Gkoenig is spot on about the Hi-Cut-Pro, it's THAT good. Leaps and bound ahead of the old hi-cut on the earlier okuma vmc's. Just make sure you know how to set the settings to get the most out of the Hi-Cut... it's actually really easy,but not something that everyone takes the time to learn how to get the most out of it. It can be changed via G Code, or in the parameter page. I use both, but mostly keep it at .002" unless I'm interpolating a tight bore then I set it to .0002" or so. And if I'm doing a high speed HSM toolpath, then I'll open the tolerance up to about .01" or so depending on my stock to leave in my program.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mooner View Post
    As for the high column - keep in mind that even without the high column option, you can't put the spindle nose on the table. High column doesn't add Z-travel - just raises the whole top half of the machine. So with the high column option, you could be stuck using long tool holders if you don't have the 4th axis installed...
    When you run a machine with a riser in it, it is often a good idea to build a table riser when you don't have a fourth attached. If you design it up right, you can make it more useful than the stock table.

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    I recommend the 1000 psi coolant option. We have it on our MB46-VAE. Not really much more money and the savings isn't just in the cycle time, it's in tool life which actually saves more $$ than the cycle time does. Unless you are doing a lot of 3D mold work, wouldn't go supernurbs. I would instead spend that money on the best chip handling system / conveyor / tank you can afford. Amazing how much money is lost dicking around with chips.

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    I have a pair of 560's, both with the 230 psi coolant system. One family of parts that we make are gauge blocks and have drilled and reamed several million holes over the last five years, and the 230 has been fine and makes a lot less mist than the 1000 psi on my Hardinge mill. Only time I wished I had higher pressure was when running a crapload of .062" .750" deep holes in 304. Highly recommend the 560's - they are tanks that leave a great finish.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CNC Farming View Post
    Hey guys, we're in the market for a couple new VMC's. A 60x30" and a 40x20" machine. I think I've narrowed down the 40x20 to the m560. So my question is to you guys that have one is what options are a must have? We're a job shop and a run of a 100 parts all the same is a lot for us.
    I was quoted a machine with high column spec +200MM.
    Generic 4th axis I/F
    Machining NAVI M-G
    Shower coolant
    TSC 213psi
    Renishaw RMP600
    Inspection plus software

    Not sure How I feel about the high column.
    We don't have a 4th but I would like to get one eventually
    Is shower coolant worth almost 5k?
    Don't have tsc on our currant machines but really want it on a new one
    If I go with the Renishaw probe and software I think I would want the RTS tool setter to go with it.
    We do some surfacing so I think I would want the Supernurbs also

    So what's your thoughts? Thanks
    I second all the comments below. We have an MB66 with a hi column. It does not have more Z so if you are not doing high parts (think working in vises) do not get it.

    Hi Cut pro is great, very powerful. We have machines with Supernurbs too. For everything we do the Hicut is just fine. Sure beats the pants off of our Brother S1000 that has the hi speed machining options when surfaceing knife handles.

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    Quote Originally Posted by huskermcdoogle View Post
    When you run a machine with a riser in it, it is often a good idea to build a table riser when you don't have a fourth attached. If you design it up right, you can make it more useful than the stock table.
    Do you have any pictures of table risers or thoughts about building one? Still waiting to hear back if the there is a 560 in stock without the riser


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