Getting $15,000, need lathe, live tooling capable, and bar feeder USED of course

madmachinst · Mar 5, 2020

I know I have to add a little more to the pot to make it happen, but $5000 is it tops. Looks like I am stuck learning how to think in C axis (what can I, or can't I do?). Now what comes up is that I saw this Emco Maier 465, looks impressive, but what is getting parts or data for that like? OTOH is it made in such a way that a 20 year old machine will be working good and maintaining .001" tol or better? Or I Just go with the Haas knowing there is an HFO that probably still has all the parts I need. I'm thinking TL-15. Maybe there is something out there that will fit my needs and I don't even know the brand name? Up to now I have been working in the garage manually making stuff, I want to leap into the next stage, be able to take on work ( 40% of the time) besides just make my own product ( 60% of teh time). Ideas suggestions I want to hear them.

Garwood · Mar 5, 2020

My only machine thought is this:

Mori Seiki DL-20MC Dual Spindle, Dual Turret 6-axis CNC Lathe with Live Tools | eBay

Believe it's a forum member here. Think I saw it in the for sale section a month or so ago.

Your post seems a bit scattered. Hard to follow.

If you are new to this stuff realize that a lathe combined with a mill is not better than a lathe and a mill for most things.

Do you have a CNC lathe and mill already or would this be your only machine? Only machine is a bad idea.

madmachinst · Mar 5, 2020

Garwood said:
My only machine thought is this:

Mori Seiki DL-20MC Dual Spindle, Dual Turret 6-axis CNC Lathe with Live Tools | eBay

Believe it's a forum member here. Think I saw it in the for sale section a month or so ago.

Your post seems a bit scattered. Hard to follow.

If you are new to this stuff realize that a lathe combined with a mill is not better than a lathe and a mill for most things.

Do you have a CNC lathe and mill already or would this be your only machine? Only machine is a bad idea.

It's just that I am finding myself going a lot from lathe to mill. I'm kinda sick of that. Have no cnc lathe just a pathetic excuse for a cnc mill. Again I ask, that Mori seiki will getting parts for that be like almost impossible? Will searching for something like a limit switch send me going bonkers?

Garwood · Mar 5, 2020

madmachinst said:
It's just that I am finding myself going a lot from lathe to mill. I'm kinda sick of that. Have no cnc lathe just a pathetic excuse for a cnc mill. Again I ask, that Mori seiki will getting parts for that be like almost impossible? Will searching for something like a limit switch send me going bonkers?

Limit switches, prox switches, dumb stuff like that is fairly universal. If you don't think you can fix it you probably shouldn't buy it. Most parts for that machine should be available, but don't be shocked if it's just as much as a new machine when it breaks.

pcasanova · Mar 5, 2020

If the 465 has a 840c and 611a drives control walk away. We just sent a 465 to scrap, the turrets needed to be rebuilt but siemens no longer supports the 840c and we weren't going to sink all the cash to rebuild them if a chance the control died the next day. If something dies its ebay or your toast. Mechanically its a decent machine. If it has the 840d and digital drives it may be something to look at.

moonlight machine · Mar 5, 2020

madmachinst said:
It's just that I am finding myself going a lot from lathe to mill. I'm kinda sick of that. Have no cnc lathe just a pathetic excuse for a cnc mill. Again I ask, that Mori seiki will getting parts for that be like almost impossible? Will searching for something like a limit switch send me going bonkers?

Why do you think getting parts for a Mori Seiki is impossible???? They are still in business and support their machinery. The advantage of having a Mori is that you will not need many parts as they are very reliable.

Garwood · Mar 5, 2020

I have bought fuses, lube parts and manuals from Mori-seiki. Never actually needed anything else. They could tell me the full history of my machines and prices were pretty damn good IMO.

I have two big old Mori mills that make that lathe look like a supermodel. One had 106,000 spindle on hours when I bought it a decade ago. probably surfaced the end contours of every exotic ferrous metal tie rod Boeing used from 1983 to 2007. Original spindle still going strong.

The other one mostly milled a 3" LOC close tolerance pocket in 4340 burnouts everyday for 20 years before I got it.

I'll race your new Haas for pink slips in steel...

Recently added a Mori SL-2HB. It's got a few years on that Ebay lathe, but man is it fast. I didn't realize what the "H" meant when I bought it. Thought it was the spindle speed. Not entirely. You change a tool and KACHUNK! there's your next tool. Right now. They could do some pretty rad stuff in 1985.

13engines · Mar 5, 2020

moonlight machine said:
Why do you think getting parts for a Mori Seiki is impossible???? They are still in business and support their machinery. The advantage of having a Mori is that you will not need many parts as they are very reliable.

I do love that DL. Almost bought one. Whether Mori has replacement parts or not for an old machine is one thing. The other thing is when asking for a part quote on older stuff, be sure you're sitting down and have a leg or two to spare and possibly a couple newborns, because the price they quote will shock you and seek to take everything you have. I have two 20-ish year old Mori machines. A lathe and mill. If it weren't for the graces of eBay and my somewhat deep seated repair-rebuild-replace skill set, I'd be in trouble or broke or both.

Even the should-be-free stuff is expensive. Case in point - $650.00 for a copy of the ladder for my lathe and 1 1/2 months to get it. Sad. I'm trying to do without, but my patience is wearing thin on that.

Dave

madmachinst · Mar 5, 2020

Thansk guys, Looks like I am getting a good education right now from folks that I trust. Not some salesman. I do know the diff between a Buggy whip and a G code but not a whole lot more than that. MOri seiki looking good about now. tell me more. I am just afraid that something like that might have difficulty coming across parts at a decent price. For example, my V2XT I just totally retrofitted controller and even started making parts for the axial bearings and such when couldn't find em at a reasonable price. NOw I take it the MS DL will not have a touch probe for the tools? Will have to enter offsets manually and no checking the tool in mid of lot runs.

Garwood · Mar 5, 2020

13engines said:
I do love that DL. Almost bought one. Whether Mori has replacement parts or not for an old machine is one thing. The other thing is when asking for a part quote on older stuff, be sure you're sitting down and have a leg or two to spare and possibly a couple newborns, because the price they quote will shock you and seek to take everything you have. I have two 20-ish year old Mori machines. A lathe and mill. If it weren't for the graces of eBay and my somewhat deep seated repair-rebuild-replace skill set, I'd be in trouble or broke or both.

Even the should-be-free stuff is expensive. Case in point - $650.00 for a copy of the ladder for my lathe and 1 1/2 months to get it. Sad. I'm trying to do without, but my patience is wearing thin on that.

Dave

Mori wanted $5000 for an obsolete encoder for one of my machines. Took me about 3 weeks to retrofit a replacement. If circumstances were different I would have considered the $5000 a steal in reality. I mean what is 3 weeks of my time worth????

Reverse engineer that ladder diagram. Bet you have about $6500 in labor into it.

I like that there are numerous resources for the older Jap machines and fanuc controls. Lots of local support, Ebay, online companies and the OEM.

Have you ever needed a hard part for a Mori? Like way covers or something substantial?

I don't know. I don't think anything is better built than Jap stuff from the late 80's through mid 90's. There was a mindset in their manufacturing culture that just blows everything else out of the water. The built the machines from the ground up to be grossly overloaded and abused.

I love how they say I can run the load meter for 30 minutes continuously in the yellow. You can't even do that. They have real Horseponies in these things. You cannot legitimately keep it there. You run out of metal.

I had a Mazak M4 CNC lathe made in 1979. Last year, for it's 40th birthday, in absolutely perfect working order I scrapped her out after I replaced it with a 30 year newer and bigger machine. That M4 wasn't exceptionally beefy, but man did I hog some steel with that thing. Man it made some beautiful big parts. I knew it's history since it was new and the replacement parts that thing needed since new was a list a fuses and a 5V power supply for the position display.

Dan from Oakland · Mar 5, 2020

Mori wanted $3500.00 for a broken casting in the tool changer of my MVJR, BUT they had it in stock and for a 20 year old machine, that's pretty darn good. I ended up making my own replacement, using the upbroken part with new portions grafted on. Got great help from Garwood (thank you sir) . Probably had 10 hours in the repair but. . . Point is, if ya buy an older machine you need to be able to dive in whenit breaks or gets cranky as being a spectator will cost ya $$$$.

madmachinst · Mar 5, 2020

YOu guys mean good welding skills and a bigger than BP sized mill in case stuff like a casting breaks?

Garwood · Mar 5, 2020

madmachinst said:
YOu guys mean good welding skills and a bigger than BP sized mill in case stuff like a casting breaks?

I don't think we're on the same page.

LOTT · Mar 5, 2020

Hardinge is good about supporting old equipment as well. I had a 1982 CHNC that needed a gear in the turret, and they had one in stock. I ended up finding one that was being parted out and saved some money (Hardinge doesn't give parts away), but it was encouraging to know those older lathes were still supported.

Vancbiker · Mar 5, 2020

Old machines are an excellent choice for the right user. For others, not so good. Having a decent mechanical aptitude and some understanding of electrical/electronics will go a very long way in keeping an old machine running well. Without those skills you will face big costs for a tech to troubleshoot and fix an old machine. Starting off with a solid late 80s or newer Japanese machine with Fanuc controls also improves the likelihood you can make good parts with it for years with minimal trouble.

I've said this many times... If the electrical diagrams and ladder diagram are not included with the machine you (or a tech) will have a very tough time troubleshooting problems. So much so that IMO, a 25 year old machine without those documents is worth little more than scrap price. Not many builders will be able to provide those for a machine that age. Getting the builders operation, parts, and maintenance manuals is a big plus. Then once you have the machine, BACKUP all the control data.

cnctoolcat · Mar 6, 2020

Mazak probably has the best parts support for early 80's and later machines, especially their turning centers. They sold so many of them back then, there are literally tens-of-thousands still in service all over the world.

Mazak electrical's are made by Mitsubishi, and they have excellent support for the older Mazak controls and drives as well.

None of this comes cheap, mind you. But it seems when you run older, and thus "should be-paid for" machines, getting gouged on parts every now and then is just the price you have to pay.

Remember, the important thing is the part(s) you need are actually available...else your older machine becomes a boat anchor.

On the older machines, the electrical stuff is what can be difficult to fix --- it's good to source spares of commonly-replaced components. Mechanical stuff, you can make your own parts if necessary...

I run my shop with Mazaks, 5 turning centers and 1 machining center, aged from 1985 to 1997. They're built solid, with heavier and beefier castings than current generation machines. And they just seem to run and run, and for me are easy to diagnose and work on. (After 23 years I guess they should be, eh?)

And when you need help diagnosing or repairing an older cnc, PM and Google are your friend too...

ToolCat

Guest · Mar 6, 2020

I would recommend something with a Fanuc control, they have to be hands down the most popular and you can easily find electronic parts and support going back to models that are over 40 years old. There are people on PM still running the 3T's and those things go back to the mid 70's.

Garwood · Mar 6, 2020

Dualkit said:
I would recommend something with a Fanuc control, they have to be hands down the most popular and you can easily find electronic parts and support going back to models that are over 40 years old. There are people on PM still running the 3T's and those things go back to the mid 70's.

I have a Mori and an Okuma, both with 3T controls. The 3T was actually a later control. I think it came out in '84 or '85. The '79 Mazak I recently scrapped was a 5T control which was one of their first I think. The 5t had no screen, the display was pretty useless when running from memory and the one tricky part was it used no decimal points. I learned to read every number right to left.

The 6, 3, 10, 11, 15, are all reasonably modern controls that program mostly like the new stuff. Or maybe you could say the new stuff programs just like the old stuff did it since the early fanuc controls kinda established what we see as normal today.

I wouldn't hesitate to own a mits control, Mazak or otherwise. Mitsubishi tech support is exceptional and FREE. Mitsubishi parts are also pretty cheap used. A lot of machines used the same modules so there's a pretty big supply of older stuff it seems.

Vancbiker · Mar 7, 2020

Garwood is correct. The 5 is older than the 3 Not a lot of reason in the numbering scheme used by Fanuc. The 6 series is what followed the 5 series. Then the 3 was brought out as a cheaper control than the 6. There was a Fanuc 7 and 9 control too. They were part of a joint venture with Siemens and like most Siemens stuff. not very good reliability compared to the real Fanuc models. Prior to the 5 was the 2000 for lathes and the 3000 for mills. Even earlier was a 20 and 200. Never saw one of those outside of the Fanuc factory museum in Japan but spent a fair bit of time on a 2000 and a small amount of time on a 3000. Cool stuff in the day. First time I saw a 6 with a CRT, I thought how can it get any better than this!

barratt · Mar 7, 2020

We have a DL20 MC. It was the first machine I bought 15 years ago. It's still going strong and is in production every day. The slideways look like brand new. It's an absolute workhorse. It does automatic pickup from spindle 1 to spindle 2. We regularly hold +/- .007 mm. It's a serious piece of kit.
It's 27 years old now. I've never had a problem getting parts for it, though I've never really had to.
The only problems I have had have been the live tooling drive bearings, which are standard parts you can buy anywhere, but a complete pain to change.
Take a look at the components they are making with it. But at $6000 it's the same as free. With due diligence, I'd buy it immediately if I were in the states.

Getting $15,000, need lathe, live tooling capable, and bar feeder USED of course

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