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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    In your dreams, maybe. Have had many machines with resolvers and never a problem with them. They are extremely reliable.

    Everything else I can think of has broken, but not one resolver. In fact the H40 had three per axis, geared together so the machine could never lose position, and even that setup was reliably running on the originals twenty-five years later.

    Whoop encoders any day of the week

    You must never have worked on Fadals with resolvers then. Always carried a couple spares in the kit. Bearing would get a little rumbly then finish goes to heck. Signal from resolver or tach goes away and axis runs away to who knows where. Only machine in the 80s and 90s that I always e-stopped before getting into the enclosure to service.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vancbiker View Post
    You must never have worked on Fadals with resolvers then.
    That's true, never owned a fadal. I guess when you make an inexpensive machine you gotta cut corners somewhere ... Come to think of it I did have a resolver fail once. But it wasn't the resolver, it was the little helical-cut coupling that broke. Slide would kind of drift off in the commanded direction, then quit with excess following error.

    The stupid electronics that drove the things, on the other hand

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    If you think ignoring Moog is arrogant, then I guess you've never seen a Moog machine ! But I guess if you want an authority on unreliable, they'd be way up the list ...
    Once more so arrogant, such a "besser wisser".
    Moog did excellent job compiling this brochure, giving solid basics of theory and implementation of the resolvers. Highly recommended even to "whole bench of resolver driven machines keepers".

    Stefan

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    Hello all,

    In not sure this is the place, but if you need any Gettys N360 drives, or boards i will sell them super cheap just to move them out of my shop, i have three complete drives and a bunch of boards boxed and ready to move.

    Thanks
    Dave.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by PROBE View Post
    Once more so arrogant, such a "besser wisser".
    Moog did excellent job compiling this brochure, giving solid basics of theory and implementation of the resolvers. Highly recommended even to "whole bench of resolver driven machines keepers".
    It's pretty cool that you found a nice pdf on the internet. So can I ask which machines you owned with resolvers that gave you this bad impression ?

    (Fadal is already taken, they also give a bad rep to belleville washers and thrust bearings so I guess we better avoid those in future, too.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    It's pretty cool that you found a nice pdf on the internet. So can I ask which machines you owned with resolvers that gave you this bad impression ?
    Unfortunately, the arrogant attitude continues. Until now it was professional exchange of opinions, now it became personal. Quite interesting attempt to prove your professional superiority. Normally I wouldn't answer to this. But today, as I'm getting older and work less, time is almost freely available. So I invest some of it in you.

    I never owned any machine. For many years I was serving as maintenance engineer and plant engineer in aircraft industry. So I personally had my hands on the machines. This probably is much closer to technical matter, then any owner ever have been.
    What machines with resolvers were treated personally by me ? Partial list, starting chronologically from 1970:
    1. Sundstrand Omnimill 5 axis (Bunker Ramo 3000 NC control)
    2. Onsrud 3 heads profiler ea.2 (Bunker Ramo 3100 NC control)
    3. Marwin 3 heads 5 axis profiler ea.3 (Bunker Ramo 3000 NC control)
    4. Marwin 3 heads 3 axis profiler ea.3 (Bunker Ramo 3100 NC control)
    5. Schiess Froriep vertical turning center (Bendix NC control)
    5. Cincinnati Milacron turning center ea.2 (Milacron NC control)
    6. Cincinnati Milacron 3 heads 5 axis profiler (Milacron Big Blue CNC)
    7. Cincinnati Milacron Hydramill 5 axis profiler (Milacron Big Blue CNC)
    8. Rigid Starrag 2 heads 4 axis profiler ea.2 (Bendix CNC control)
    9. George Fischer turning center ea.2 (Bendix CNC control)
    10. Sundstrand S80 5 axis machining center (Sundstrand CNC control)

    You of course are for sure deeply aquainted with all these machines and controls, aren't you ?

    All these machines had brushless resolvers in final position feedback stage, and many of them brushed resolvers in the intermediate stages (grid shift or master/slave combo). As mentioned before, almost no problems with brushless units, nightmare with brushed ones.

    Stefan

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    Quote Originally Posted by PROBE View Post
    ...But today, as I'm getting older and work less, time is almost freely available. So I invest some of it in you.

    5. Cincinnati Milacron turning center ea.2 (Milacron NC control)
    6. Cincinnati Milacron 3 heads 5 axis profiler (Milacron Big Blue CNC)
    7. Cincinnati Milacron Hydramill 5 axis profiler (Milacron Big Blue CNC)

    Stefan
    Likewise, more free time here; so I enjoyed reading your post and had to reply too! I supplied the servos and drives for all 3 of these machines you worked on. We used brushless Harowe size 11 resolvers in the back of the motors - geared to the motor shaft so 0.200" of slide motion = 1 mechanical rev of the resolver. We've retrofitted all those over the years with newer motors & drives. Today we replacde the position resolver with a 'geared resolver emulator' a friend and I designed (uses an encoder signal and/or 0-10V 16bit analog position command) CMI played a trick with the spindle motors on both #6 & #7 above that most people today still do not understand or believe is possible! They use 30HP spindle motors wired for 230V & the spindle drive runs them to [email protected] and continues right up to [email protected] - making them 60 hp spindles. Top speed was usually 144hz.

    We still service all these motors, and we do sell replacement resolvers still - probably avg 1 a month - supporting these 30,000 or so still running axes out there... Reason for selling replacements? bearings as you said or worn out gears on some models that have 6:1 built in gearhead. Maybe 1 a year for actual resolver problems.

  8. Likes PROBE liked this post
  9. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by PROBE View Post
    Unfortunately, the arrogant attitude continues. Until now it was professional exchange of opinions, now it became personal. Quite interesting attempt to prove your professional superiority. Normally I wouldn't answer to this. But today, as I'm getting older and work less, time is almost freely available. So I invest some of it in you.

    I never owned any machine. For many years I was serving as maintenance engineer and plant engineer in aircraft industry. So I personally had my hands on the machines. This probably is much closer to technical matter, then any owner ever have been.
    What machines with resolvers were treated personally by me ? Partial list, starting chronologically from 1970:
    Oh cool, it's a "who had the most clunky old machines" contest ! I can play this ! (btw, small shop owners fix their own stuff. We don't have the big pockets like Airbus)

    You of course are for sure deeply aquainted with all these machines and controls, aren't you ?
    Some similar, mostly different, more along these lines (just the ones running resolvers):

    Owned -

    Lathes

    American
    Eagle, Bendix 5M
    Panther, Westinghouse 2560
    South Bend Cyclone, Actrion, 50 millionths resolution, cute lathe
    Cincinnati 10CU (actually a 10CC with a swingup, like a shortbed CU), 900

    Mills

    Sundstrand OM-1 Swinc (the PDP-11 one)
    Cincinnati H40, Acc 220
    KT 180, C control (pdp-8), redesigned the spindle drive so it wouldn't explodde
    KT 200 (2 ea), D control

    stuff I got my hands in enough to get bloody, kinda like you :

    Lathes

    Monarch (don't know the model, vertical ways, 20" swing), GE 1050
    Sheldon 1710, Allen-Badley 7320, all hydraulic
    Wade ? not sure of the brand, nice but rare, 30" swing flatbed, Bendix 5
    Femco wheel-turning lathe, godknows, it was retro-ed Chinese and all in characters

    Mills

    104 ExCellO (2), Bendix 5M
    KT 800, D control (current there would go up and down 60 v during the day, eek)
    Cincinnati Sabre 1250, don't remember which control, never gave a problem
    Rooski thing, don't know but it had tubes (Soviet Union used to cooperate in Harbin)

    Never replaced even one resolver, although had a coupling break once. Encoder stuff ?

    OKK's, Mazaks both H and V, Awea, Fellows 10-4 retro, Hofler 2 and 3 meter grinders, Maag 5 meter retro, Nanjing 2 meter shaper (also designed a new worktable together), Okamoto 7 axis grinder, other weird stuff. Replaced a few encoders. Two or maybe three ? Anyway, more than resolvers.

    Ergot, resolvers are better than encoders

    All these machines had brushless resolvers in final position feedback stage, and many of them brushed resolvers in the intermediate stages (grid shift or master/slave combo). As mentioned before, almost no problems with brushless units, nightmare with brushed ones.
    The "brushed" ones are called differential resolvers. Generally they got used on lathes, not mills. They were not a problem because 98% of the time they just sit there. You use them to set up home position or touch off a tool occasionally, or re-index to an existing thread for recutting. Or some other onesy-twosey tricks. But mostly they sit there quietly, not moving thus not wearing out. Mikey likes them, they can be a convenience and if you can't troubleshoot something so obvious, well ...

    As mentioned before, almost no problems with brushless units, nightmare with brushed ones.
    You just said you agree with me, resolvers are not a problem. Axis resolvers don't have brushes, and differential resolvers generally don't move, thus don't wear.

    Altho working with old Sundstrands, anything is possible. The electronics on those were ahead of their time - i.e., more ambitious than reliable. Machines were nice, electronics were shit. And some guys rode a firestick to the moon with crap like that ... talk about taking your life in your hands

    Quote Originally Posted by mike_kilroy View Post
    We used brushless Harowe
    Them's the ones

    We still service all these motors, and we do sell replacement resolvers still - probably avg 1 a month - supporting these 30,000 or so still running axes ... Maybe 1 a year for actual resolver problems.
    30,000 axes, one replacement per year, case closed, I'd say ?

    resolvers in the back of the motors - geared to the motor shaft so 0.200" of slide motion = 1 mechanical rev of the resolver.
    Never liked this. K&T does it this way too but American Tool always stretched the leadscrews, then direct-connected the resolver on the opposite end of the screw itself ... so you kind of got what happened, instead of what you asked for. Better idear, imo.

  10. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    Oh cool, it's a "who had the most clunky old machines" contest ! I can play this ! (btw, small shop owners fix their own stuff. We don't have the big pockets like Airbus)


    Some similar, mostly different, more along these lines (just the ones running resolvers):

    Owned -

    Lathes

    American
    Eagle, Bendix 5M
    Panther, Westinghouse 2560
    South Bend Cyclone, Actrion, 50 millionths resolution, cute lathe
    Cincinnati 10CU (actually a 10CC with a swingup, like a shortbed CU), 900

    Mills

    Sundstrand OM-1 Swinc (the PDP-11 one)
    Cincinnati H40, Acc 220
    KT 180, C control (pdp-8), redesigned the spindle drive so it wouldn't explodde
    KT 200 (2 ea), D control

    stuff I got my hands in enough to get bloody, kinda like you :

    Lathes

    Monarch (don't know the model, vertical ways, 20" swing), GE 1050
    Sheldon 1710, Allen-Badley 7320, all hydraulic
    Wade ? not sure of the brand, nice but rare, 30" swing flatbed, Bendix 5
    Femco wheel-turning lathe, godknows, it was retro-ed Chinese and all in characters

    Mills

    104 ExCellO (2), Bendix 5M
    KT 800, D control (current there would go up and down 60 v during the day, eek)
    Cincinnati Sabre 1250, don't remember which control, never gave a problem
    Rooski thing, don't know but it had tubes (Soviet Union used to cooperate in Harbin)

    Never replaced even one resolver, although had a coupling break once. Encoder stuff ?

    OKK's, Mazaks both H and V, Awea, Fellows 10-4 retro, Hofler 2 and 3 meter grinders, Maag 5 meter retro, Nanjing 2 meter shaper (also designed a new worktable together), Okamoto 7 axis grinder, other weird stuff. Replaced a few encoders. Two or maybe three ? Anyway, more than resolvers.

    Ergot, resolvers are better than encoders


    The "brushed" ones are called differential resolvers. Generally they got used on lathes, not mills. They were not a problem because 98% of the time they just sit there. You use them to set up home position or touch off a tool occasionally, or re-index to an existing thread for recutting. Or some other onesy-twosey tricks. But mostly they sit there quietly, not moving thus not wearing out. Mikey likes them, they can be a convenience and if you can't troubleshoot something so obvious, well ...



    You just said you agree with me, resolvers are not a problem. Axis resolvers don't have brushes, and differential resolvers generally don't move, thus don't wear.

    Altho working with old Sundstrands, anything is possible. The electronics on those were ahead of their time - i.e., more ambitious than reliable. Machines were nice, electronics were shit. And some guys rode a firestick to the moon with crap like that ... talk about taking your life in your hands


    Them's the ones


    30,000 axes, one replacement per year, case closed, I'd say ?


    Never liked this. K&T does it this way too but American Tool always stretched the leadscrews, then direct-connected the resolver on the opposite end of the screw itself ... so you kind of got what happened, instead of what you asked for. Better idear, imo.
    Just in order to conclude: EMANUEL GOLDSTEIN - THE HERO !!!

  11. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by PROBE View Post
    Just in order to conclude: EMANUEL GOLDSTEIN - THE HERO !!!
    Seems to me you shouldn't ask people to come play, if you get your panties in a twist when they accept

    btw, if you take like two minutes to edit the quoted part, you can make it a lot easier on other readers. It's not real difficult. If you can troubleshoot a Sundstrand, you should be able to figure out a cursor.


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