To go all Dual Contact, Standard or both?

Djstorm100 · Apr 19, 2022

I have my first machine coming with a big plus spindle, the VMC has a ATC door as well. I cut mostly alum 6061, but I'm debating to sell the few holders I have (rest went with the Haas when I sold it)and go all dual contact (maritool probably), use both standard and dual or not even worry with it since I'm cutting alum

If most say, don't worry about it. I may get dual contact and just keep those for when running harder materials (steel,etc), thoughts?

Rod Man · Apr 19, 2022

When I got my Doosan 2 years ago, I made the decision to ONLY use dual contact. There not that much more money. The problem with mixing them is the possibility of getting a chip on the face of the spindle when a std holder is in, and then the next holder is a dual contact, Now your really going to be out of round/balance.

I also use all Maritool holders with no problems.

Dale

MCritchley · Apr 19, 2022

I went 100% dual contact. I’m using mostly Lyndex Nikken holders. They blue up better than the Mari and parlec holders.

CarbideBob · Apr 19, 2022

Since most will end up with 50 to a hundred tool holders eventually is there a price difference?
Does one holder have a longer life and less fussy?
Does one spindle taper have a longer life?
HSK dual contact but 100 percent different in how it is done.
Bob

gkoenig · Apr 19, 2022

Depends entirely on the machine. Outfit with a room full of Robodrills (BBT, no face wash) and Speedios (BBT, high pressure face wash). Back of the napkin math says the 14 Speedios went through 54,000 tool changes per day, and I never got a single report of a part thrown out of spec due to chips in the taper (or really, anything besides gross operator error). The Robodrill fleet, running similar numbers, had chips smushed into the BBT contact face every week or two. That is such a big fleet, doing a lot of work, I hardly think a single Robodrill user would run into this issue often, but the data does lead to some interesting conclusions.

CarbideBob · Apr 19, 2022

gkoenig said:
..... Back of the napkin math says the 14 Speedios went through 54,000 tool changes per day,

That is truly flying fast.

Bobw · Apr 19, 2022

CarbideBob said:
That is truly flying fast.

37 tool changes a minute, 24 hours a day..

I'll give you a power of 10 error on that for napkin math, I've done it, I think we've all done it.

Almost 4 tool changes a minute. A Fadal wouldn't even be able to cut any metal, it would just
be changing tools all day, then it would pass out and take a leave of absence.

-------------

I get not using standard tapers and dual contacts in the same program, and its all because
you don't want chips getting between the face and the tool holder. I don't know if somebody
has done this yet, but couldn't you use a simple soft plastic or rubber ring on the standard taper
holders that would seat up against the face and keep the chips out?

MaxPrairie · Apr 19, 2022

On my dual contact machine I made the decision to run standard cat 40. Reason being they were considerably more expensive when I looked at the list of approved tool suppliers that would not void the machine warranty. Of course with a potential customer standing right there, the salesman says I could use whatever brand I wanted without voiding it. I too raised the concern when buying the machine of flip flopping between dual contact and standard taper. One tech says no problem another says probably a good idea to stick with one. I have not had any rigidity issues, but running all dual contact isn’t going to hurt you. Most of my holders are around 4” gage length.

gkoenig · Apr 20, 2022

Bobw said:
37 tool changes a minute, 24 hours a day..

I'll give you a power of 10 error on that for napkin math, I've done it, I think we've all done it.

Almost 4 tool changes a minute. A Fadal wouldn't even be able to cut any metal, it would just
be changing tools all day, then it would pass out and take a leave of absence.

7 Dual spindle cells - one robot feeding 2 Speedios, so 14 total machines.
20 tool changes in the cycle, with a total cycle time of 5m54s (from first cut to first cut, including loading time).
At full production, 2700 parts a day, 3 shifts, 24/6.

So yea, 54,000 tool changes across the fleet in a single day. And that takes into account machine downtime for part inspection, machine cleaning, tool management, robot problems. (~5 hours a day). Speedios do not fuck around, which is why they aren't called Slowios:

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Mtndew · Apr 20, 2022

Djstorm100 said:
thoughts?

Go all dual contact.

That reminds me, how come Haas doesn't have any dual contact spindles?

DouglasJRizzo · Apr 20, 2022

Djstorm100 said:
I have my first machine coming with a big plus spindle, the VMC has a ATC door as well. I cut mostly alum 6061, but I'm debating to sell the few holders I have (rest went with the Haas when I sold it)and go all dual contact (maritool probably), use both standard and dual or not even worry with it since I'm cutting alum

If most say, don't worry about it. I may get dual contact and just keep those for when running harder materials (steel,etc), thoughts?

When I worked for Doosan, I would advise that you could do either/or, BUT, once you start using full contact tooling, you'll really never want to go back. The improvements in machining and tool performance are that good.

TrollTuner · Apr 20, 2022

My Okumas (460-5Ax 15k, 560 15k BBT have air blast on the V section of the holder. Brother 16k BBT has Air assisted coolant wash of the taper. All 3 run a mix of Dual contact and std holders.

In 5 years on the Okuma 560 I had a chip in there twice, but wasn't using the Tool change macro with the air blast.

Mix of maritool, Iscar, Schunk and Lyndex holders.

2outof3 · Apr 20, 2022

Tool changers are unique best. Where are the tools held? If they are held inside the machining area, and if the machine is built correctly and has face wash, no need to not mix. Higher RPMS, say above 15,000 ,should be regular holders to allow taper full contact.

Mike1974 · Apr 20, 2022

Mtndew said:
Go all dual contact.

That reminds me, how come Haas doesn't have any dual contact spindles?

Everyone pretty much knows my feelings on Haas, but anyhow

They don't have one I would guesstimate because it would not make a rigidity difference? (unless that was a rhetorical question

)

DouglasJRizzo · Apr 20, 2022

Mike1974 said:
Everyone pretty much knows my feelings on Haas, but anyhow

They don't have one I would guesstimate because it would not make a rigidity difference? (unless that was a rhetorical question )

Most likely the more rigid connection between tool and spindle would cause other Z axis issues.

Mtndew · Apr 20, 2022

Mike1974 said:
Everyone pretty much knows my feelings on Haas, but anyhow

They don't have one I would guesstimate because it would not make a rigidity difference? (unless that was a rhetorical question )

It was a legit question, and I pretty much knew the answer, same as you. But I find it really weird they haven't advanced to the dual contact system yet.

Djstorm100 · Apr 20, 2022

Mtndew said:
Go all dual contact.

That reminds me, how come Haas doesn't have any dual contact spindles?

Mtndew said:
It was a legit question, and I pretty much knew the answer, same as you. But I find it really weird they haven't advanced to the dual contact system yet.

I suspect it being cost and holding tolerances and would their market buy the "upgraded" spindle. IF anything Haas would have it as a option.

My new machine is a DNM4500.

mhajicek · Apr 20, 2022

Mtndew said:
Go all dual contact.

That reminds me, how come Haas doesn't have any dual contact spindles?

What I was told was they didn't want to pay the license fee. They do have some HSK spindles.

CarbideBob · Apr 20, 2022

Is HSK better than dual contact?
Worth the higher dollar holders?

mhajicek · Apr 20, 2022

CarbideBob said:
Is HSK better than dual contact?
Worth the higher dollar holders?

Depends on what you're doing. From what I've heard from others, HSK is better above about 15K-20K RPM. Steep taper is better below.

To go all Dual Contact, Standard or both?

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