HAAS DM2 or Brother S700X1?

I'm contemplating selling my TM-2 and replacing it.

I'm looking for 1) more RPM 2) Faster Toolchanges 3)Enclosed Mill

I cut a bunch of plastic and aluminum. I have drilled and tapped some steel (mostly 1018).

Looks like the HAAS is around 5K pounds, brother is 3.5K. I could keep all of my cat 40 tooling and not have to re-learn a control with the HAAS.

Thoughts & Advice?

Tim

behindpropellers said:

Looks like the HAAS is around 5K pounds, brother is 3.5K.

Click to expand...

Brother S700X1 is right around 5000#.

Regards.

Mike

could give more info on what the goal is.
reliability?
fastest cycle time?...PRODUCTION OR PROTOTYPE?
interchangeability with existing cat40 holders? (already answered)
more rigidity with cat40 vs itty-bitty 30 taper?
ease of use/ familiarity. (already answered)
great local parts and service.
applications support
resale value?

for me those come out with Haas on top. But it would be neat to see a head to head on cycle time for the same part. You could give both MFG's a representative program and see which one wins.

Just a heads up if you plan on buying new. A DM-2 is $5K more than a VF-2SS for the base machine. Once optioned out this difference would be less noticeable, but something to think about. The DM-2 still is faster with tool changes and rapids so if you plan on sticking with the small plastic and aluminum stuff it may be better.

Edit: Just noticed the DM-2 comes with a 15k spindle(Albeit a lower torque one), so it does beat out the VF-2SS in the regard without options.

If you actually want to see the differences.
Haas VMC Comparison: VF-2, VF-2SS & DM-2 – Pick the machine that best suits your needs! - YouTube

With regards to the brother, it seems like they are awesome machines and meet most people expectations. The biggest hurdle sounds like it would be the control and the investment in new tooling.

I am stirring the pot a little bit when I say this, but when concerning rigidity, don't just look at the face-value fact that one machine is CAT40, and the other is BT30B+... Consider the linear guides used too... I don't have an answer for you, and in fact, the Haas might be more rigid, but I wouldn't leave it to chance...

Ask how big the rails/trucks are on both machines. Also ask if they're ball, or roller guides. Then also ask how many on each axis, and then finally the static & dynamic load capacity for the rails in each axis, on each machine. Then you will start to get an idea for how rigid the machine is. I would be especially interested in the Z-axis guides on a typical C-frame, saddle/table type machine, like these are. During X-axis roughing cuts, the length of the headstock casting (from the spindle centerline to the column & Z-axis ways) means that all that feed/cutting force is acting like a lever against the Z-axis ways. The stiffer they are, the less deflection at the ways, which translates into a lot less deflection at the spindle, which means WAY more rigidity...

We could add in drawbar tension/force too, but y'all get the idea.

The OP mentioned that he was cutting aluminum & plastic, so he probably doesn't need a whole lot of rigidity. But if you were face-milling steel, this stuff would matter for sure.

I guess I've said all that to say, don't just write-off the BT30 machine as "weaker" until you really start digging into the hardware & specs more...

You really should come down and play with my brothers for a few minutes.

We're in Hudson now.

This recent thread had lots of advice and opinions on how the Brother and Haas machines compare.

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/cnc-machining/feedback-speedio-vs-vf-ss-faster-better-321185/

J Gilles said:

If you actually want to see the differences.
Haas VMC Comparison: VF-2, VF-2SS & DM-2 – Pick the machine that best suits your needs! - YouTube

Click to expand...

A Brother would have been done with that part in about 45 seconds, for what that's worth. Four second chip to chip on the DM-2 in that video versus a real 2 seconds on a Brother, the Haas doesn't have a tool change while positioning command which saves a half second or so per op, and the spindle accel and decel for the tapping.

The Brother control takes about 1 hour to learn, it is very straight forward.

Brother has been making high speed machines for decades now with continual improvement, on a ground up design based on reliability, simplicity and speed. Haas is still getting started, and trying to work off their basic VMC design, which kinda sucks. They have redone the high speed spindle a few times already. The Haas tool changer is the same unreliable side arm thing. Understanding the brilliance of the Brother tool changer pains you to see other systems. No switches, solenoids, actuators or anything. The Brother never needs to be homed, it has absolute encoders. The Brother has a grease packed spindle that doesn't require oil or service. It goes on and on....

jid2 said:

The Brother control takes about 1 hour to learn, it is very straight forward.

Brother has been making high speed machines for decades now with continual improvement, on a ground up design based on reliability, simplicity and speed. Haas is still getting started, and trying to work off their basic VMC design, which kinda sucks. They have redone the high speed spindle a few times already. The Haas tool changer is the same unreliable side arm thing. Understanding the brilliance of the Brother tool changer pains you to see other systems. No switches, solenoids, actuators or anything. The Brother never needs to be homed, it has absolute encoders. The Brother has a grease packed spindle that doesn't require oil or service. It goes on and on....

Click to expand...

I understand that you like brother and all but what a load of crap.
One hour to learn..it took them two weeks just to figure out how I could move the tool breakage detector without the machine defaulting back to the original xy home.. That is weeks not hours.

Unreliable tool changer. How many decades do I have to run all of mine with no failures to prove that wrong?
Come on man lets keep it real.
Gary

jid2 said:

The Brother control takes about 1 hour to learn, it is very straight forward.

Brother has been making high speed machines for decades now with continual improvement, on a ground up design based on reliability, simplicity and speed. Haas is still getting started, and trying to work off their basic VMC design, which kinda sucks. They have redone the high speed spindle a few times already. The Haas tool changer is the same unreliable side arm thing. Understanding the brilliance of the Brother tool changer pains you to see other systems. No switches, solenoids, actuators or anything. The Brother never needs to be homed, it has absolute encoders. The Brother has a grease packed spindle that doesn't require oil or service. It goes on and on....

Click to expand...

Speaking from experience there jid2? I think not!
I obviously agree with Cycle1000 here.
I am pretty anti-HAAS lately. But, it has nothing to do with the side-mount tool-changer reliability!
I love PM, but, it is very important that newbies learn how to wade through the B.S. comments to find truths.
Not just chug coolaid like alot of the guys on here like to do.
Your comment about the HAAS tool-changer is freakin' ridiculous.

In my 20+ years working with HAAS machines, I have seen exactly one side-mount tool-changer that had a major failure.
Sometimes the seal on the shaft will leak. And, it is an easy, cheap, repair.
The HAAS side-mount changer is actually super reliable.

I like what you do jid2. And, enjoy a lot of your posts. Both here and on IG.
But, you just put a big smack-down on your credibility.

Another reason that HAAS is slower on toolchanges is because the side-mount tool carousal isn't servo driven(unless recently changed).

If you have several short ops, it cannot prestage tools fast enough. Each tool pot pauses briefly before preceding to the next.

Poor wording, I'm talking about any side mount tool changer, not the Haas one specifically. Just from a pure MTBF (mean time between failure) based on the general design and components used. From an engineering design standpoint side mount tool changers are simply not as reliable. Lots of data out there with users across all machine brands to validate that. But of course there will be people who never have issues and others that have too many issues.

Again, one of the real benefits of the 30 taper machines that Brother and Fanuc build is the design simplicity and how it creates system reliability. It's at the core of the design. The approach that Haas uses for their machines is based off their VMC design, which does not leverage the same simplicity with things like the tool changer and spindle as an example.

And I've bought two Haas machines in the past year.

Rstewart said:

Another reason that HAAS is slower on toolchanges is because the side-mount tool carousal isn't servo driven(unless recently changed).

If you have several short ops, it cannot prestage tools fast enough. Each tool pot pauses briefly before preceding to the next.

Click to expand...

The DM line (and DT) is servo driven. Might be too little too late though. I hate watching our 40-tool ATC index at every damn pot when the spot drill only hits two holes and has to wait.

Head mounted turrets like Brother and Fanuc are not without their limitations. I like the extra Z axis travel of a side mount, another plus is the tool holders are farther from the spindle and stay cleaner. And yes I speak from real world experience.

jid2 said:

Poor wording, I'm talking about any side mount tool changer, not the Haas one specifically. Just from a pure MTBF (mean time between failure) based on the general design and components used. From an engineering design standpoint side mount tool changers are simply not as reliable. Lots of data out there with users across all machine brands to validate that. But of course there will be people who never have issues and others that have too many issues.

Again, one of the real benefits of the 30 taper machines that Brother and Fanuc build is the design simplicity and how it creates system reliability. It's at the core of the design. The approach that Haas uses for their machines is based off their VMC design, which does not leverage the same simplicity with things like the tool changer and spindle as an example.

And I've bought two Haas machines in the past year.

Click to expand...

While i absolutely agree with this, from an engineering perspective it is a little bit splitting hairs. I've had to replace 10 year old prox switches (due to bad cracked wires) on my Haas SMTC, but other than that it's been dead reliable. So 14 years needing a $150 fix. That's good enough in the business world, IMHO.
I could split hairs an say it is rather dumb to have the Robo/brother TC design with all the tools poking down at the part/setup.

Atomkinder said:

The DM line (and DT) is servo driven. Might be too little too late though. I hate watching our 40-tool ATC index at every damn pot when the spot drill only hits two holes and has to wait.

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LoL, fast tool changes are for people who don't know how to fill up the table with parts.

Fast tool changes are addictive, if your the one running the machine. Once you have a mill that does fast tool changes you can't go back.

I ran boring mills with NO toolchanger and 1000rpm max.
still didn't stop me from hitting a 20ft ceiling with chips.
to each there own

DavidScott said:

Head mounted turrets like Brother and Fanuc are not without their limitations. I like the extra Z axis travel of a side mount, another plus is the tool holders are farther from the spindle and stay cleaner. And yes I speak from real world experience.

Click to expand...

I have 3 Brothers currently. Only one of them have the head mounted tool changer. So there are other options if head mount is not the way to go. But who knows, maybe they are pushing away from that model. I do see them more often than not, pushing the head mount method. I do with the head mounts could hold more tools.

Our Tc-31a has a 26 tool changer that runs on the xy casting with the spindle. So the machine does not have to move to a tool change position for a tool. Just moved up in z and bam, tool change done.

The Tc-32BN we have, has a 41 tool changer that the machine has to travel to. But the machine is so fast we do not see much time wasted.

The brothers are not for everyone and not for every part. But I still preach if you have small parts, or parts that fit with in their envelope. It will work rings around haas all day, every day, for years. Oh I know the haas fan boys always hate that comment. But lets be real, Haas does not design their machines to be trouble free for decades. I truly feel their business model is to also sell you service and parts, not just selling you a bullet proof machine.

Oh and yes I have ran Haas. Haas does some things, I wish the other tool builders would do to make life a little easier. But in the end I rather my machine run than have fancy new gidgets. As for the people who always talk about how great the control is. any new machine I approach, I figure out where to send programs in, where is my work offsets, and where is my tool offsets. You know those 3 things you can run any machine. So yes, it can take as little as an hour to get used to a brother control, assuming you know the basics of cnc.

mkd said:

LoL, fast tool changes are for people who don't know how to fill up the table with parts.

Click to expand...

We do VERY SHORT runs of our own parts. Right now there are 10 of one part, and that's the most we've made of any part in weeks. Soon to come there are 24 of another part, but we only have one fixture (for one part at a time) because there are plenty of times that having to load a fixture in with the hoist for one part makes no sense. Plus they get flipped, and that fixture fits on both our Chick subplate and the Fadal table. Most of our setups are vise work.

If we did any real production, sure, that'd make sense. Otherwise extending our cycle times waiting for a tool change is just boring.