Haas lathe turret - VDI versus BOT

sirAIG · Sep 27, 2020

As the title suggests - I am looking at a new lathe. Is there reason to invest in the 12 tool vdi turret when using a 3ax, tailstock lathe? clearances better? etc, Please give me your thoughts. Thanks

g-coder05 · Sep 27, 2020

3 axis lathe? That would entail either a sub spindle or a C axis. If a C axis then yes the VDI would be the only choice pretty much. If a Sub only then bolt on for sure so you have more back side tool options. If you meant 2X lathe then the Bolt on would still more than likely be the best best IMO. Unless you have a lot of VDI holders and want to keep common tools loaded for quick swaps.

SeymourDumore · Sep 27, 2020

g-coder05 said:
3 axis lathe? That would entail either a sub spindle or a C axis. If a C axis then yes the VDI would be the only choice pretty much. .

Not correct G-coder!
Haas offers the BMT65 turret without live tools ( basically it's a BMT turret without the M )

To the OP.
If the machine you're after is an ST20 or bigger, then I would VERY STRONGLY suggest to VERY SERIOUSLY consider the BMT65 option!
As far as a VDI or BOT, unless very specific needs, I would NEVER choose a VDI.

sirAIG · Sep 27, 2020

I should have specified. This is a st15y - live tool, y axis, c axis, single spindle. The "stock" turret is a hybrid vdi/bolt on turret. I'm thinking that'd be best, but there is an only vdi options. I've not used VDI but I have bolt on.

g-coder05 · Sep 27, 2020

That Hybrid turret is a nuisance. You can read my other recent post about when I ordered 5 St-20Y's with it. Dicking around trying to arrange pockets is an absolut PITA. I wound up having to make a bunch of custom bolt on blocks to hold multiple tools per station just for the simplest jobs. A lot of people don't like VDI (Very Dumb Idea) because of the space it uses and rigidity. I prefer it since we have a wide selection of preloaded VDI holders and the speed for which they can be swapped out.

I like the BMT and the available 24 station but they are a but time consuming and a bit more pricey.

If you do get stuck with the hybrid turret you can download the CAD files for tool blanks from my files download page on my website.

File Downloads –

Schjell · Sep 28, 2020

I've got a 2020 ST-30Y with the BMT65 24 position turret. I haven't had anything else but I'm very happy with my turret. Holders are very self-aligning, but I guess VDI is as well.

My only piece of advice would be to avoid ordering live tool holders from Haas when ordering a new machine. Just as for their chucks - Haas uses a number of suppliers and it's a lottery what you're going to get. Some people get a Kit chuck, I got a Samchully:-)
It's aggravating to see how bulky my holders are compared to many others on the market.
My live tools (a total of seven), Kintek, are good quality I think, but the axial ones are awful boxy and are therefore not ideal when you want to work along the the z on axial features closer to the center of the part. I need to use ER16 collet extension shanks due to this sometimes and then you lose rigidity.
Likewise the radial ones should ideally be of the type which have the axle offset closer towards the chuck rather than in the center.

My snapshot below shows one of these annoying instances. In order to countersink those features shown in blue I need to use "extension" collet shanks to avoid collision with part. I had a look at some other holders on the market and I would have avoided this with them.

sirAIG · Sep 28, 2020

Okay, I'll bite. We actually were talking with some other folks today who said get the 20y just for the bmt65. I know nothing of live tool/modern lathe tooling. Where should I begin to start learning more of bmt65, etc? We are putting an order in on a lathe, it can change at any point in time for a while as we are not taking delivery until December.

SeymourDumore · Sep 28, 2020

sirAIG said:
Okay, I'll bite. We actually were talking with some other folks today who said get the 20y just for the bmt65. I know nothing of live tool/modern lathe tooling. Where should I begin to start learning more of bmt65, etc? .

Honestly the best advise you can get!

Right out of the gate, the BMT turret provides far better clearance than any other turret, bar none.
The standard VDI and the BOT would be in your way even on a collet chuck, never mind a 3 jaw chuck, and it will be in your way EVERY FRIGGIN' TIME!!!

The BMT turret is an industry standard and as such it has the best variety of available tool blocks, let it be live or static tools.
What that also means is that if in the future you get a Mori or Doosan or whatever with the 65 turret, you can use the same toolblocks on them.

Third ( and I am just thinking out loud here ), the BMT turret is far more massive than any other, which means you will have much more mass behind your cutting tool.
Certainly a positive when it comes to a Haas!

Schjell · Sep 29, 2020

SeymourDumore said:
Honestly the best advise you can get!

Right out of the gate, the BMT turret provides far better clearance than any other turret, bar none.
The standard VDI and the BOT would be in your way even on a collet chuck, never mind a 3 jaw chuck, and it will be in your way EVERY FRIGGIN' TIME!!!

The BMT turret is an industry standard and as such it has the best variety of available tool blocks, let it be live or static tools.
What that also means is that if in the future you get a Mori or Doosan or whatever with the 65 turret, you can use the same toolblocks on them.

Third ( and I am just thinking out loud here ), the BMT turret is far more massive than any other, which means you will have much more mass behind your cutting tool.
Certainly a positive when it comes to a Haas!

Not sure about the 20-model, but I see that that Haas now sell a longer version of their ST Y-series lathes.
For me that would also be a no brainer, knowing what I know today.
In our ST-30Y I can only make parts that are approx. 340 mm long (13") if I am to do boring ops. The new machines also have recess in the firewall to allow ops closer to the chuck without crashing the longer drill & boring bar into the firewall in the process.
I had a look in my machine. Mostly air behind the firewall in the upper x axis position so I'm seriously contemplating on making such a hole myself and form a recess with sheet metal. WIll wait until my warranty runs out though:-)

g-coder05 · Sep 29, 2020

The new machines also have recess in the firewall to allow ops closer to the chuck without crashing the longer drill & boring bar into the firewall in the process.
I had a look in my machine. Mostly air behind the firewall in the upper x axis position so I'm seriously contemplating on making such a hole myself and form a recess with sheet metal. WIll wait until my warranty runs out though:-)

This is something I've bitched about for years and don't think I haven't ever heard another Lathe guy not bitch about it. Every 2X lathe I have ran has nothing up there behind the "Firewall" but air. you would think the MTB's would have said "Hey, let's make use of that real estate and give I.D. tools a place to hide while stick tools are doing O.D. work".

I had an 80's model Milacron 18C that had a pocket up there and it was super convenient. I could have a 3" bar sticking out more than 24" and turn all the way up to the face and still have room to spare. But even Cincinnati took that feature out of newer models.

I'm glad to see Haas making enclosures more user friendly.

I do miss the Cincinnati turret....

3 minute mark
CINCINNATI MILACRON 2 AXIS CNC UNIVERSAL TURNING CENTRE MODEL 18-60 - YouTube

Schjell · Sep 29, 2020

g-coder05 said:
This is something I've bitched about for years and don't think I haven't ever heard another Lathe guy not bitch about it. Every 2X lathe I have ran has nothing up there behind the "Firewall" but air. you would think the MTB's would have said "Hey, let's make use of that real estate and give I.D. tools a place to hide while stick tools are doing O.D. work".

I had an 80's model Milacron 18C that had a pocket up there and it was super convenient. I could have a 3" bar sticking out more than 24" and turn all the way up to the face and still have room to spare. But even Cincinnati took that feature out of newer models.

I'm glad to see Haas making enclosures more user friendly.

I do miss the Cincinnati turret....

3 minute mark
CINCINNATI MILACRON 2 AXIS CNC UNIVERSAL TURNING CENTRE MODEL 18-60 - YouTube

It's not just a little air either - It's a massive useless open space. Took a picture just now.
The saw is coming out in about 8 months time:-) Untill then I will just need to pluck out the drill and boring bar during option stops when required.
Luckily, for the stuff we make, tolerances arent that tight so the BMT65 allows re-inserting the tools without probing them.

SeymourDumore · Sep 29, 2020

g-coder05 said:
This is something I've bitched about for years and don't think I haven't ever heard another Lathe guy not bitch about it. Every 2X lathe I have ran has nothing up there behind the "Firewall" but air. you would think the MTB's would have said "Hey, let's make use of that real estate and give I.D. tools a place to hide while stick tools are doing O.D. work".

Hardinge and their "collet-chuck-in-the-spindle"design is the absolute worst offender!

The other thing I bitch about 2X lathes is the size of the turret on 99% of them!
For F@ck's Sake builders!
I understand that you want to make the most out of the inside real estate, but Come On! The size of the turrets nowadays are ridiculously small!
AT the very least, offer an optional "Bigass" turret! For example, look at the original Mori Duraturn 2510 or 2550 and the turret size on that thing!
That is why Haas's option of a BMT65 without the motor is so GD nice. With the added distance, one does not need to remove anything.

cnctoolcat · Sep 29, 2020

Pics, or this thread is worthless...[emoji23]

Orange Vise · Sep 30, 2020

sirAIG said:
Okay, I'll bite. We actually were talking with some other folks today who said get the 20y just for the bmt65. I know nothing of live tool/modern lathe tooling. Where should I begin to start learning more of bmt65, etc? We are putting an order in on a lathe, it can change at any point in time for a while as we are not taking delivery until December.

Haas' move to standardize BMT65 on the larger lathes played a sizable role in convincing us to purchase two ST20Ys for delivery in November. They will complement our 2014 Mori NLX2500SY. The Mori has a "real" subspindle and there are a number of jobs that must stay on that machine, but the new ST20Ys will be able to offload about 80% of the current jobs.

SeymourDumore · Sep 30, 2020

Orange Vise said:
Haas' move to standardize BMT65 on the larger lathes played a sizable role in convincing us to purchase two ST20Ys for delivery in November. .

Funny enough, in my case that very same move dealt them back into the field of potential players for my next lathe. Put them on top of that list even.
Doosan also offers a BMT65 turret, but theirs is about 30% smaller in diameter, so there is no gain AND theirs is only offered on live tool machines.
Seriously Doosan?

sirAIG · Oct 1, 2020

Orange Vise said:
Haas' move to standardize BMT65 on the larger lathes played a sizable role in convincing us to purchase two ST20Ys for delivery in November. They will complement our 2014 Mori NLX2500SY. The Mori has a "real" subspindle and there are a number of jobs that must stay on that machine, but the new ST20Ys will be able to offload about 80% of the current jobs.

What is the difference between a "real" sub spindle and the finishing spindle haas sells? This is a question I've not explored yet.

Either way, we put in a order on a st20y to lock in a sale price. (30% off). Still needing to decide all the details, from chuck to insert holders to live tool holders. I know nothing of y axis, dual spindle lathes except we want/need the capabilities.

Schjell · Oct 2, 2020

sirAIG said:
What is the difference between a "real" sub spindle and the finishing spindle haas sells? This is a question I've not explored yet.

Either way, we put in a order on a st20y to lock in a sale price. (30% off). Still needing to decide all the details, from chuck to insert holders to live tool holders. I know nothing of y axis, dual spindle lathes except we want/need the capabilities.

Congrats on order! Would however pass a request to Haas if there are any specific live tool holder makes you would prefer over others. Like I mentioned, if they are overly bulky then that's going to annoy the hell out of you. My understanding is that if I had said I wanted a Kit chuck I probably would have got it. It's a luck of the draw on all unspecified items. Didn't know any better at the time.
Unrelated, but where in CT are you based? On my mother's side I hail from Litchfield.

SeymourDumore · Oct 2, 2020

Schjell;3634234if I had said I wanted a Kit chuck I probably would have got it. .... Unrelated said:
#1: Unfortunately, stateside the MTB or the reseller usually does not deal ( or cannot provide a deal ) by removing an otherwise INCLUDED item.
That is not unique to Haas, rather to all builders. You MAY have a chance for a switcheroo or deduction if ordering more than 3-4 units, otherwise
you get the Flavor_of_the_month chuck.
I got lucky with Haas and ended up with a Matsumoto ( MMK ).
Mori supplied a Kitagawa as standard, but if you wanted a machine with an alternative (or no chuck even ) there were no discounts or deductions.

#2: WOW!!!
Small World!
You're in Norway, but y'er Mom is from my current neck of the woods!
Litchfield is like less-than 10 miles from my dungeon!
Was she a native or a NY weekender?
NWCT is absolutely beautiful, along with the Berkshire portions of CT, MA or NY!

Orange Vise · Oct 2, 2020

sirAIG said:
What is the difference between a "real" sub spindle and the finishing spindle haas sells? This is a question I've not explored yet.

Either way, we put in a order on a st20y to lock in a sale price. (30% off). Still needing to decide all the details, from chuck to insert holders to live tool holders. I know nothing of y axis, dual spindle lathes except we want/need the capabilities.

The finishing sub is lighter duty and only does 3+1 indexing rather than full 4th.

Also, a "real" sub has a larger and longer thru-bore, allow it swallow longer workpieces and finish the left end. That's not to say it can't be done on an ST20Y, but you might have to get creative with the workholding.

Schjell · Oct 2, 2020

SeymourDumore said:
#1: Unfortunately, stateside the MTB or the reseller usually does not deal ( or cannot provide a deal ) by removing an otherwise INCLUDED item.
That is not unique to Haas, rather to all builders. You MAY have a chance for a switcheroo or deduction if ordering more than 3-4 units, otherwise
you get the Flavor_of_the_month chuck.
I got lucky with Haas and ended up with a Matsumoto ( MMK ).
Mori supplied a Kitagawa as standard, but if you wanted a machine with an alternative (or no chuck even ) there were no discounts or deductions.

#2: WOW!!!
Small World!
You're in Norway, but y'er Mom is from my current neck of the woods!
Litchfield is like less-than 10 miles from my dungeon!
Was she a native or a NY weekender?
NWCT is absolutely beautiful, along with the Berkshire portions of CT, MA or NY!

She grew up there, but somehow she ended up in Norway

Have to agree that it's a fabulous area - used to go across there at least every second year up until a few years back. Can't wait for the world to get back normal again - A lot of good childhood memories from Litchfield!

Haas lathe turret - VDI versus BOT

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