Haas or Pinnacle? buying new 3 and 5 axis machines: Which is better? - Page 3
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    @Snoopy-16 maybe get some test parts made on the AX machines and the UMC machines as a comparison ?

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    snoopy-16 - Wow dude, you have really great depth on this. So one thing I would be trying to sort out, of those two local-to-South-Australia dealers, are they both likely to suvive the current turmoils? This is a question about perceived stability of the dealer, rather than the MTB. I have no idea how you would judge this.

    In the 10ish years after I bought my DMU60, DMG changed it's distribution model in the US *twice*.

    So assuming both of the local dealers seem to have strong tech/parts support, I guess the stability of the arrangement would matter.

    The other thing to do would be find a pinnacle-with-HH owner, and ask to see the schematics, other drawings, and the M-code list. Are all of the M-codes actually listed? Do they all do what they say they do?

    My DMU60 is fine in this regard, but I had a CTX Eco where the manual was just plain wrong about many things. But if Pinnacle is doing good integration the documentation will actually describe the machine correctly.

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    OK, I went and looked at the AX-320 (which is what Snoop-16 says they are considering) and I'll note that the drawings on the web page say the X-axis range is from center of rotary to way off the left. Which means if you have say a 300mm plate centered on the rotary, you can't drill a bolt circle all around it with just X and Y moves - you'll have to move in C. Not frontier, but such arrangements sometimes cause me some stress.

    The UMC750's layout drawing shows them able to reach the entire surface of the rotary in X and Y alone (no need to spin the table in C to say drill holes in the right half of the workpiece.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by bryan_machine View Post
    OK, I went and looked at the AX-320 (which is what Snoop-16 says they are considering) and I'll note that the drawings on the web page say the X-axis range is from center of rotary to way off the left. Which means if you have say a 300mm plate centered on the rotary, you can't drill a bolt circle all around it with just X and Y moves - you'll have to move in C. Not frontier, but such arrangements sometimes cause me some stress.

    The UMC750's layout drawing shows them able to reach the entire surface of the rotary in X and Y alone (no need to spin the table in C to say drill holes in the right half of the workpiece.)
    You almost had me there lol... I was gonna say "Good catch" ,

    but,

    trunion-moves-maybe.jpg

    AX 320 ^^^ Click to blow up.


    I know with "German machines" sometime everything moves on X,Y and Z on an "Upper deck"

    On this machine the Trunnion moves in X and Y.

    I'm relatively sure that trunnion can be "shuftied" over to the left to get to the right side of the platter.

    I.e. you don't have to rotate C axis for full bolt circle - unlike old school horizontal integrex and some of the Mazak Variaxis machines there is a very narrow X travel with long / deep Y but sometime have to swing a larger part into that smaller volume.

    @Brryan_machine I agree on some machines the travels are deceptive as almost 40% of useful travel is just to get to the tool changer and the actual useful part envelope is much smaller + the asymmetric thing (I think you have mentioned that before a few times in general - mine field avoidance when buying / designing production for 5 axis machines.) [The Makino D200Z has quite a bit of that weird asymmetry but has a "Nutating" Z-rotary thingy ] - .

    That is one interesting aspect of the UMC 1500 duo is the travelling ram with X, Y and Z movements all riding on a "bridge" and the UMC 500 and 750s.

    But also your @Bryan "Big head" big platter problems (you've mention before too) ? + fixturing off the table , like waaay off the table. 8" ++ ...++++

    @Snoop - What part sizes are you dealing with / geometry ... ?

    (Later - Monday lol).

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    @Snoopy-16 How much is AX 170 ? -ish ?

    __________________________________________________ ______________________________________

    I haven't asked for a quote on the AX170, only the AX320.
    The AX320 is very close to the price of the Haas UMC750 after import & currency exchange is taken into account.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bryan_machine View Post
    OK, I went and looked at the AX-320 (which is what Snoop-16 says they are considering) and I'll note that the drawings on the web page say the X-axis range is from center of rotary to way off the left. Which means if you have say a 300mm plate centered on the rotary, you can't drill a bolt circle all around it with just X and Y moves - you'll have to move in C. Not frontier, but such arrangements sometimes cause me some stress.

    The UMC750's layout drawing shows them able to reach the entire surface of the rotary in X and Y alone (no need to spin the table in C to say drill holes in the right half of the workpiece.)
    I looked at this too. ( the issue with the x axis not travelling past the centre line of the table, and this is just wrong! I visited a site with the same machine, and you can in actual fact move the X travel across the full length of the table. I simply do not understand why the advertised drawings of travel show this. When I mentioned it to the Pinnacle Sales rep, he agreed, saying that the drawing was very 'confusing'!

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    On reflection, the "X axis" line on the drawing is showing the range of X movement of the table, rather than of the spindle (bad drafting, no biscuit!)

    All that said - it's a thing to really grok before you buy a machine - you don't have to ask me how I know this....

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    That drawing has to be wrong, no builder would cut the travel in half on a basic trunnion for no reason. All trunnion machines I have seen are capable of moving the spindle to any area between the side of the trunnion.

    As far as pricing goes, Haas says the UMC750 starts at 155,000 on their website. Assuming the Australian dealer pays duties, freight, and takes a 25% margin, you are probably in the range of 200,000 USD? It may just be the artificial price floor of living in a high tax country with no domestic machine builders, but the prices I have gotten quoted from machine tool builders in Taiwan start at well under 100,000 USD for 3+2 machines, and a high end full 5 axis similar to a DMG monoblock was just under 150,000 USD.

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    Quote Originally Posted by empwoer View Post
    before you make assumptions about me, we have 2 haas lathes, 3 VF3's, VF2, VF4 and UMC500SS
    the VF machines are classic control and pretty reliable, cut aluminum and cast steels. the UMC is a piece of shit because out of the 9 months we've owned it, it wasnt broken for about 3 months total. i'm not exactly talking out of my ass...
    Not really followed this thread. But I think Empower is one of the rare guys who got a lemon. I have worked with Haas for years now. Never had <too> many issues, cutting hardened tool steels to aluminum. From VF2 to UMC750 (2nd iteration I think) and the SL and ST series lathes.

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    Something else to consider, or think about. On the (older) UMC 750 models, the X axis is biased to the left side. The table rotates to the right, with the platter facing left, so more travel on that side. Not sure it would make a difference, but may seem odd on first inspection.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Generic Default View Post
    That drawing has to be wrong, no builder would cut the travel in half on a basic trunnion for no reason. All trunnion machines I have seen are capable of moving the spindle to any area between the side of the trunnion.

    <Snip snoop>
    The drawing is not "Wrong" or especially wrong.

    trunion-moves-maybe.jpg

    ^^^ click to "blow up".

    You just have to be aware the trunnion moves.

    AND be aware that the machine is not a bridge style where the trunnion moves through the bridge but rather is a C-frame with a trunnion that moves in the horizontal plane in X and Y and the that spindle is static (other than moving up and down in Z).

    So it's stated the X travel on the machine is 660 mm.

    The AX- 320 picture shows the Trunnion shifted all the way to the right.

    The center line of the spindle is shown and the center line of the platter and max work envelope is shown.

    Just imagine pushing the trunnion from right to left like it's a shopping cart but the arrows and dimensions below the trunnion remain static. (Essentially referenced to the "static" center line of the spindle.).

    The 330 mm travels shown left and right of the center line of the spindle are correct also.

    It's confusing perhaps as they don't show a ghosted or dotted line version of the trunnion in two or three different positions. (or some sort of animation).

    trunion-moves-right-ax-450.jpg
    ^^^ click to "blow up".

    AX 450 - ^^^ X travel 760 mm (but picture shows trunnion translated all the way to the left ) so you have to imagine where it would be translated 760 mm to the right (like a shopping cart) - or align center lines of spindle and platter when translated 380 mm. [Moving trunnion , static range of X travel (lines) and dimensions referenced to the horizontally static spindle.].

    So in effect the spindle can "reach" or really access most of the useful areas of the platter and trunnion.

    No biggie. (Just visual communication and what people are normally used to .).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Generic Default View Post
    <snip>
    but the prices I have gotten quoted from machine tool builders in Taiwan start at well under 100,000 USD for 3+2 machines, and a high end full 5 axis similar to a DMG monoblock was just under 150,000 USD.
    This is interesting ^^^ . So when said machines wash up on US shores they are basically double the price ?

    Shipping, import duty, dealer / vendor network + everybody's cut / profit margin.

    So what's the profit margin of a Taiwanese builder selling in Taiwan* ?

    The Chevalier machines and 5 axis offering and Hardinge verticals 3+2 are around $180K to $220K (depending on options) - but in Taiwan these machines could be had for 1/2 ?

    _________________________

    * I'm guessing 25% - 30% ish profit margin (for Taiwanese builder selling direct in Taiwan ? ) - Iron + control and mechatronics and time for build etc. ?

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    I have a basic 3 axis Pinnacle with a 4th...
    Have had it for about 10 years. It has served me well. The only thing that bothers me is that it is not as sturdy as my my other machines.
    I know it does not really apply to what you are looking for but this is the newer version of mine CNC Machining Center Manufacturer & Suppliers - PINNACLE MACHINE TOOL CO.,LTD. in Taichung, Taiwan
    I busted spindle bearings and we replaced them, the draw bar cup washers gave in and I replaced them.
    Base is not as rigid as my other Tai machines but it does kick butt. It has it's uses and gets run daily.
    No issues on repeatability, no issues with the punch that the dealer said it should be able to take.
    Like I said, 5X is not my territory but the machine has treated me well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    This is interesting ^^^ . So when said machines wash up on US shores they are basically double the price ?

    Shipping, import duty, dealer / vendor network + everybody's cut / profit margin.

    So what's the profit margin of a Taiwanese builder selling in Taiwan* ?

    The Chevalier machines and 5 axis offering and Hardinge verticals 3+2 are around $180K to $220K (depending on options) - but in Taiwan these machines could be had for 1/2 ?

    _________________________

    * I'm guessing 25% - 30% ish profit margin (for Taiwanese builder selling direct in Taiwan ? ) - Iron + control and mechatronics and time for build etc. ?

    Yep, I didn't realize it until I came here and started getting quotes, but as it turns out Americans are getting hosed when buying foreign CNCs, and in all aspects of maintenance, service, replacement parts, fluids....that's just on the commercial side of things. A service technician in Taiwan costs 150 dollars for the whole day, no need to actually keep inventory with distributors since you can drive across the county in less than an hour to pick up any conceivable replacement part of any CNC machine.

    The margins from the builders are generally in the 15-30% range on most common machines, but 5 axis and VTLs have higher margins. For example, one of the two builders in your quote is charging exactly half for their 3+2 (actually 4+1) VMC, just as you suggest. When I saw it in person it looked equivalently beefy to a Doosan DNM and also had linear rollers on all axes, the only difference being the Taiwanese one came as a 4+1 and had options of Fanuc, Siemens, and Heidenhain (Heidenhain 5 axis does full 5th but adds about 30k to the price). That was right around 95k. You can buy a 60 inch X VMC for under 80k here.


    BTW there's a probability of a free trade agreement between the US and Taiwan soon, which the builders here have been salivating over, as it will once again allow them to undercut Korean builders on landed price.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Generic Default View Post
    Yep, I didn't realize it until I came here and started getting quotes, but as it turns out Americans are getting hosed when buying foreign CNCs, and in all aspects of maintenance, service, replacement parts, fluids....that's just on the commercial side of things. A service technician in Taiwan costs 150 dollars for the whole day, no need to actually keep inventory with distributors since you can drive across the county in less than an hour to pick up any conceivable replacement part of any CNC machine.

    The margins from the builders are generally in the 15-30% range on most common machines, but 5 axis and VTLs have higher margins. For example, one of the two builders in your quote is charging exactly half for their 3+2 (actually 4+1) VMC, just as you suggest. When I saw it in person it looked equivalently beefy to a Doosan DNM and also had linear rollers on all axes, the only difference being the Taiwanese one came as a 4+1 and had options of Fanuc, Siemens, and Heidenhain (Heidenhain 5 axis does full 5th but adds about 30k to the price). That was right around 95k. You can buy a 60 inch X VMC for under 80k here.


    BTW there's a probability of a free trade agreement between the US and Taiwan soon, which the builders here have been salivating over, as it will once again allow them to undercut Korean builders on landed price.
    So in the USA (as you know) there's HAAS and DMG Mori - Davis built machines. Maybe Fryer Taiwanses iron but German mechatronics installed / built in the USA. Higher end Hardinge lathes/turning centers finished in the USA (Super precision).

    So if there is "Free Trade" between Taiwan and USA then probably the dealers are going to pocket most of that difference.

    Not sure that the CCP would be too "Happy" about that...

    __________________________________________________ ___________

    @Snoopy-16 Given your 35 years HH experience and being in a more remote state for the brands represented / talked about here - ever consider being a dealer for someone like Pinnacle ? Or does your "Normal" work do more than fine for what you need and run with ?

    No clue as to import duties in Australia ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    So in the USA (as you know) there's HAAS and DMG Mori - Davis built machines. Maybe Fryer Taiwanses iron but German mechatronics installed / built in the USA. Higher end Hardinge lathes/turning centers finished in the USA (Super precision).

    So if there is "Free Trade" between Taiwan and USA then probably the dealers are going to pocket most of that difference.

    Not sure that the CCP would be too "Happy" about that...

    __________________________________________________ ___________

    @Snoopy-16 Given your 35 years HH experience and being in a more remote state for the brands represented / talked about here - ever consider being a dealer for someone like Pinnacle ? Or does your "Normal" work do more than fine for what you need and run with ?

    No clue as to import duties in Australia ?

    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by bryan_machine View Post
    OK, I went and looked at the AX-320 (which is what Snoop-16 says they are considering) and I'll note that the drawings on the web page say the X-axis range is from center of rotary to way off the left. Which means if you have say a 300mm plate centered on the rotary, you can't drill a bolt circle all around it with just X and Y moves - you'll have to move in C. Not frontier, but such arrangements sometimes cause me some stress.

    The UMC750's layout drawing shows them able to reach the entire surface of the rotary in X and Y alone (no need to spin the table in C to say drill holes in the right half of the workpiece.)
    Yes that is correct. I ran one for a few years. Also worth noting (at least that model year, 2014'ish?) you could fit 2 Kurt D688 on the platter and have full C axis travels. SO I think it is truly a Universal Machining Center. I think the platter dia is around 20", so unless you normally work on larger parts than that, it functions fine as a 3 axis with vises/fixtures as well as 4 & 5 axis work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    So in the USA (as you know) there's HAAS and DMG Mori - Davis built machines. Maybe Fryer Taiwanses iron but German mechatronics installed / built in the USA. Higher end Hardinge lathes/turning centers finished in the USA (Super precision).

    So if there is "Free Trade" between Taiwan and USA then probably the dealers are going to pocket most of that difference.

    Not sure that the CCP would be too "Happy" about that...

    __________________________________________________ ___________

    @Snoopy-16 Given your 35 years HH experience and being in a more remote state for the brands represented / talked about here - ever consider being a dealer for someone like Pinnacle ? Or does your "Normal" work do more than fine for what you need and run with ?

    No clue as to import duties in Australia ?
    There are no import duties on machine tools into Australia. The market for new machine tools in Adelaide might be 20 per year across all brands, Don't think machine tool sales would be a good business to be in.

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    There are no import duties on machine tools into Australia. The market for new machine tools in Adelaide might be 20 per year across all brands, Don't think machine tool sales would be a good business to be in.
    Not to mention the UMC's exported to Asia/Australia are 20% off the build a quote price and the VF's and ST's get 10% off.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    So if there is "Free Trade" between Taiwan and USA then probably the dealers are going to pocket most of that difference.

    Not sure that the CCP would be too "Happy" about that...
    Do you mean duty-free ? CCP wouldn't care. Duty is now a tad less than 4%, that's nothing. Dealers generally triple the price.

    Okay, that seems excessive, yes ? Except they have to have a nice showroom, buy the machines, ship the machines, keep them in stock, keep spares in stock, hire tech people, hire sales people, hire accounting people ... I'm not making excuses but in real life, if you don't triple the real price, you're going to go broke.

    Now you would think there'd be a few people who would import their own, right ? If you find one, send 'em my way. I've seen some nice machines, cheap, made okay, all Fanuc and Eaton and Hiwin, mechanical parts in stock, what's to worry about ? But nope, "Where do I get service ? what if a deadlybobber breaks ? Who will hold my hand ?"

    So if it costs three times more than it should, at least people can be happy they'll "get service". Until the dealer goes broke or quits, at least.

    The other reason the CCP won't care is, lots and lots of 'Taiwan' stuff is actually made on the mainland. There's not a single major Taiwan company that doesn't have operations across the straits. Remember that white cat, black cat thing ? As long as the work is done in heilongjiang or guangdong, who cares what name goes on it ? Ship from taizhong or ship from qingdao, as long as it catches dollars no one cares.

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