Haas or Pinnacle? buying new 3 and 5 axis machines: Which is better? - Page 4
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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by g-coder05 View Post
    The Pinnacle is just another Taichung rebenaded machine popped out at the same factory that makes Johnford, Mighty Viper, Acra, Smart CNC, and several other brands. This is good and bad at the same time. One, If your distributor has any common sense and you need an out of stock part he can call and get one from one of the other brands. It could be bad as since they produce so many machines they may run out of parts for everything. GuoFeng Taichung will rebrand a machine for anyone with some money so don't be surprised if they are out of stock.

    I have to agree. My dad bought a Victor CNC lathe in the 80s, and no matter how many times I gave the serial # and part # from the book it took two or three attempts to get the correct part for it. Workmanship was so bad, that after a while, we just quit using it.

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  3. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    Do you mean duty-free ? CCP wouldn't care. Duty is now a tad less than 4%, that's nothing. Dealers generally triple the price.

    Okay, that seems excessive, yes ? Except they have to have a nice showroom, buy the machines, ship the machines, keep them in stock, keep spares in stock, hire tech people, hire sales people, hire accounting people ... I'm not making excuses but in real life, if you don't triple the real price, you're going to go broke.

    Now you would think there'd be a few people who would import their own, right ? If you find one, send 'em my way. I've seen some nice machines, cheap, made okay, all Fanuc and Eaton and Hiwin, mechanical parts in stock, what's to worry about ? But nope, "Where do I get service ? what if a deadlybobber breaks ? Who will hold my hand ?"

    So if it costs three times more than it should, at least people can be happy they'll "get service". Until the dealer goes broke or quits, at least.

    The other reason the CCP won't care is, lots and lots of 'Taiwan' stuff is actually made on the mainland. There's not a single major Taiwan company that doesn't have operations across the straits. Remember that white cat, black cat thing ? As long as the work is done in heilongjiang or guangdong, who cares what name goes on it ? Ship from taizhong or ship from qingdao, as long as it catches dollars no one cares.
    What Generic Defualt is alluding to is the possibility of a FTA (Free Trade Agreement) modelled on Canada - Mexico - USA "Agreement". ... But for Taiwan and the USA. - That's been floated out there but has to come from the current administration. [I don't think that's going to happen or be made a priority. Depending on who and what you read the deadline for that would be before January.].

    GenericDefault refers to Taiwanese machine tool folks that would be or are (quote) "Salivating" at the prospect.

    __________________________________________________ ______________________________________________

    I agree there's a LOT of stuff made in Taiwan - that's made in mainland China.

    What I'm alluding to is that CCP "Reserves the right to use military force to take back Taiwan if need be"

    Interestingly in German media they have been making comparisons to the "little green men" that magically turned up in Crimea (I.e. unmarked Russian green uniformed men and women that just "turn up" in increasing numbers ) to essentially precipitate the complete annexation of the Crimea by Russia . ~ Comparisons have been made with "little blue men" (or not so little) in blue civilian styled vessels / fishing boats across the Taiwan straight.

    As we know that delicate balance (politically) of Taiwan is really important to maintain...

    On Trump's first few days of his presidency he had the "Audacity" to phone Tsai Ing-wen (first woman president of Taiwan) to congratulate her on her victory - Which of course elicited the usual "Beijing is very angry blah blah blah ... _______________________ " (Fill in the blanks) response.

    I could see Taiwan operating very much like Switzerland during the second world war if things between the USA and China broke down further to become "frostier" without drawing too heavily on "Cold War" styled rhetoric.

    Things have not gone well for Hong Kong, and It's debatable how well and how far the US Navy would intervene if Beijing decides to push a little harder in Taiwan's direction.

  4. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    What Generic Defualt is alluding to is the possibility of a FTA (Free Trade Agreement) modelled on Canada - Mexico - USA "Agreement". ... But for Taiwan and the USA. -
    Sure, but my point was, it wouldn't matter. Duty is about 4%. Remove it entirely and how much difference have you made ? Meanwhile, markup is triple. There would have to be a large negative duty to make much difference over the way it already is

    GenericDefault refers to Taiwanese machine tool folks that would be or are (quote) "Salivating" at the prospect.
    The prospect of removing a 4% duty ? Whoopee. So what ?

    What I'm alluding to is that CCP "Reserves the right to use military force to take back Taiwan if need be"
    Absent some stupid provocative move by the US, that'll remain a sentence on paper. Taiwan is not interested in this either - they have huge investments in China and lots of relatives. Everyone knows it will eventually return to the People's Republic. Might be ten years, might be fifty, might be five hundred. But it will happen and everyone knows it. They just want it to be after they have made their millions

    Personally, I think if they were smart they'd go for it now and try to get the best deal. Maybe that's what their long-term plan is too, they are just waiting for the best moment for themselves. They don't seriously think this is a forever situation, if necessary the PRC will eventually just buy the place up. In fact, they already are ...

    Comparisons have been made with "little blue men" (or not so little) in blue civilian styled vessels / fishing boats across the Taiwan straight.
    Just as interesting are the little islands to the north, ostensibly part of Taiwan, that are clinging more and more to the mainland. See my "buy the place up" observation above

    It's really their own family argument and the US would do well to keep out of it. US "support" is based on trying to control the world through puppet governments but in the long run no one wants that. Jiang died decades ago and was the loser in a civil war anyhow, the US decided that Taiwan belonged to China in 1945, and most important, no one in Washington is smart enough or persistent enough to play the long game anyhow. This is like betting against the house at Vegas. Sure, you may win for a while but in the long run ...

    The US is basically stupid. Washington should spend its efforts making the US the best place possible, instead of trying to control the world through military force. In the long run, military-based empires crash. Heck, it may even be the short run. It's only been 75 years and US control of the world is coming apart.

    As we know that delicate balance (politically) of Taiwan is really important to maintain...
    Why ? For what ? Who cares ? Plenty of US manufacturing jobs have been shipped to Taiwan, all for geopolitical power play reasons. Congress sold us out so they could play toy soldiers all over the world. People here on PM should hate Taiwan, they've been just as important in losing US industries as China. Taiwan didn't do shit on their own, the US shipped money and jobs there (our jobs, notably not finance company jobs) in exchange for an outpost for tin soldiers.

    Taiwan ain't shit. The guomindang lost the war, stole the money, ran off in the middle of the night, murdered the inhabitants of the island, and claim to be saints. Even Stilwell couldn't stand the worthless little bastard. Do you know when this "democracy" had its first election ? 1996. Took 'em fifty years to figure out how to count ?

    btw, "democratic" Hong Kong same-same. The Brits had a 100 year lease. After 96 years they figured they'd maybe hold an election. But not for anything important, mind you. Dog catcher, maybe. Everything else was still controlled by their colonial government.

    Look it up. I'm not telling tales.

    On Trump's first few days of his presidency he had the "Audacity" to phone Tsai Ing-wen (first woman president of Taiwan) to congratulate her on her victory - Which of course elicited the usual "Beijing is very angry blah blah blah ... _______________________ " (Fill in the blanks) response.
    Yeah, and ? That's what it was, provocation. I think they are dumb to respond to some of that stuff, they should just stick the knife in somewhere else, but oh well. They probably have reasons.

    I could see Taiwan operating very much like Switzerland ...
    Everyone in Asia behaves like Switzerland. Nobody likes the US. They just keep their mouths shut so they can get the money. When the money goes away, or if a better deal comes along, they'll drop the US like a hot poker. Ask anyone who lives there. g-coder will tell you.

    People in the US may think Trump is a genius, no one anywhere else in the world does. They see this crap and realize "we could easily be next." The guy fucked with Canada, fer chrissakes. People in Singapore and Malaysia and South Korea can read. He's driving away every other country on the planet. Lots of people on PM think that's cool. They'll be squalling like babies with dirty diapers when the rest of the world tells the US to go pound sand.

    Things have not gone well for Hong Kong
    Things are fine in Hong Kong except for the buses. Those things are scary. I was just there Monday, they even have flights again (but not sure if flights from the US can enter ? Maybe have to quarantine ?) The virus thing is screwy but otherwise, nothing unusual at all. You shouldn't put so much credence in the Washington Post.

    and It's debatable how well and how far the US Navy would intervene if Beijing decides to push a little harder in Taiwan's direction.
    Well, it's not going to come from China. They are perfectly happy to wait 5, 10, 50, 500 years. If there is provocation, it will come from the planet's Grade One Provocateur, the US. Do you need me to find Ulysses S. Grant's remarks on that subject ? I can do that ....

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    Quote Originally Posted by EmanuelGoldstein View Post
    Sure, but my point was, it wouldn't matter. Duty is about 4%. Remove it entirely and how much difference have you made ? Meanwhile, markup is triple. There would have to be a large negative duty to make much difference over the way it already is


    The prospect of removing a 4% duty ? Whoopee. So what ? <snip>

    Personally, I think if they were smart they'd go for it now and try to get the best deal. Maybe that's what their long-term plan is too, they are just waiting for the best moment for themselves. They don't seriously think this is a forever situation, if necessary the PRC will eventually just buy the place up. In fact, they already are ...

    <Snip>

    [Emphasis added].

    Interesting read (nice).


    German / European news channels kinda paint the picture that China had tried to "Woo" Taiwan (much like what you describe) but seemingly (or superficially) was not entirely successful in those attempts. I.e. The current approach is being described as more "Stick" than "Carrot" now.

    War is basically "Theft". But in China's view - Taiwan already belongs to China (constitutionally mandated). ~ Cheaper than buying everything in Taiwan.

    So I agree 'If" I was Xi Jinping - NOW would be the time to push the button on all that (especially as the USA is super distracted right now).

    Strangely there's this idea floating around that IF China takes back Taiwan - sooner rather than later then that would allow the world to acclimatize to a PRC / CCP run Taiwan over a twenty year period so that would fit nicely within a 2047 full /"Whole" and broader consolidated framework of Chinese sovereignty (plus fitting inside a 100 year important anniversary). [There are also pressures and timelines related to Chinese internal politics, plus the enduring rhetoric of 100 years of Chinese "Humiliation" by the West that demands some sort of action.].

    If not now then maybe in another era. [I.e. Either NOW or within the next seven years or ... much much later. ].

    I agree the uncertainty of US action is a key aspect of this weird almost cold - "Mexican standoff" in the South China Sea and Taiwan straights - for the US it's weird / weak double standard as the US essentially acts as a protectorate for South Korea and Japan (of course).

  6. #65
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    This oughta piss off Trueturning

    Quote Originally Posted by Ulysses S Grant
    There was no intimation given that the removal of the 3d and 4th regiments of infantry to the western border of Louisiana was occasioned in any way by the prospective annexation of Texas, but it was generally understood that such was the case. Ostensibly we were intended to prevent filibustering into Texas, but really as a menace to Mexico in case she appeared to contemplate war. Generally the officers of the army were indifferent whether the annexation was consummated or not; but not so all of them. For myself, I was bitterly opposed to the measure, and to this day regard the war, which resulted, as one of the most unjust ever waged by a stronger against a weaker nation. It was an instance of a republic following the bad example of European monarchies, in not considering justice in their desire to acquire additional territory. Texas was originally a state belonging to the republic of Mexico. It extended from the Sabine River on the east to the Rio Grande on the west, and from the Gulf of Mexico on the south and east to the territory of the United States and New Mexico—another Mexican state at that time—on the north and west. An empire in territory, it had but a very sparse population, until settled by Americans who had received authority from Mexico to colonize. These colonists paid very little attention to the supreme government, and introduced slavery into the state almost from the start, though the constitution of Mexico did not, nor does it now, sanction that institution. Soon they set up an independent government of their own, and war existed, between Texas and Mexico, in name from that time until 1836, when active hostilities very nearly ceased upon the capture of Santa Anna, the Mexican President. Before long, however, the same people—who with permission of Mexico had colonized Texas, and afterwards set up slavery there, and then seceded as soon as they felt strong enough to do so—offered themselves and the State to the United States, and in 1845 their offer was accepted. The occupation, separation and annexation were, from the inception of the movement to its final consummation, a conspiracy to acquire territory out of which slave states might be formed for the American Union.
    Just one instance of Unconditional Surrender's view of US military incursions - there's more, but I remembered where this one was ... the whole thing is really well-written (and free, and fascinating), worth your time --

    Personal Memoirs of U. S. Grant, Complete

    by the way, he writes in several places that slavery was the cause of the 'rebellion' (his term) ... As the northern supreme commander, he seems like a credible source. More credible than some "daughter of the confederacy" seventy years later, for sure.

    the US essentially acts as a protectorate for South Korea and Japan (of course).
    Disagree. The US uses these places as locations for military outposts. Washington buys countries off with jobs - manufacturing jobs, let it be noted - so that they will allow US bases to threaten anyone who dares to stand up to the American Empire in that part of the world. The US doesn't give a crap about human rights, decency, democracy, rule of law, free trade, any of that shit. We've proven that time and time again. What the US cares about is power, empire, and money.

    I think it's pretty obvious that over time, the US will lose at this game. China has diplomacy and patience. The US has Trump and Mike Pence. Maybe people in the US like those dorks but no one anywhere else on the planet does. They have a losing game plan, and they're sticking to it, by God !

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    Default Still happy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Green Machine View Post
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    I took delivery of an LV147 about a month ago. Has the Mits M80 controller on it, which I am pretty happy with so far. So far so good, nice to have a brand new machine with some bells and whistles on it, but nothing special. I visited a couple places with multiples of the same machine I purchased, bought over 5 years or so, and they seemed pretty happy. A big step up for me from an early 90's OKK(with a mits control). The 147 is claimed at 11000 kgs, not 9000, which is far greater than the nearest haas(vf5-40xt which has an extra 5 inches x travel, but still weighs almost 4000 kgs less). A similarly equipped Haas with incentives on the web site right now is about 21000 usd more than I paid for similar equipment.
    It's been a while since I posted this question, but I now hope to place an order this week on my new machines. Now that you have had your LV147 for a few months, do you have any thoughts on this machine?

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    Still pretty happy, haven't had any issues with the machine. Have no issue with the type of work I do (die building, tooling). Build all of my dies to CAD, and they always line up exactly. Does pretty good at 3d surfacing. It's a commodity machine, not a high end fancy showpiece, but it looks pretty good when you walk in and see it, and it gets the job done for me with ease. So I guess what I am saying is I would buy another if the workload justifies it.

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  10. #68
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    Hey hello!

    I looking to buy a Pinnacle LV105, I sent you a private message, but if you do not receive it, if you can tell me your thoughts so far, and how well does your Pinnacle cuts D2 and 4140PH.

    If you have other machines, how do you compare this brand with other options, we have Haas and I really hope that pinnacle cuts a lot better than Haas.

    Thanks,

    Arturo



    Quote Originally Posted by Green Machine View Post
    Still pretty happy, haven't had any issues with the machine. Have no issue with the type of work I do (die building, tooling). Build all of my dies to CAD, and they always line up exactly. Does pretty good at 3d surfacing. It's a commodity machine, not a high end fancy showpiece, but it looks pretty good when you walk in and see it, and it gets the job done for me with ease. So I guess what I am saying is I would buy another if the workload justifies it.


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