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HAAS UMC1000 vs DMG DMU 50 / Monoblock 65

BrickTactical

Plastic
Joined
Jul 26, 2018
Alright so I wanted to start this discussion and get some feedback from people that may own or have ran 5 axis machines before.

Recently I bought a Haas DM2 mill and I love the machine, I'm making great parts, learning a lot and making money. No complaints.

Some of the parts I'm currently making are three set ups and would be one set ups on a 5 axis machine. The company I'm making most of my parts for also have a couple higer ticket parts that need a 5 axis to be competitive with. If I had one I would have a very high chance of getting them to outsource said parts to my future 5 axis machine.

I definitely see no reason to buy another three axis machine after I own this DM2, I want to learn 5 axis and it's just becoming the new norm so I think it's the smart move to bust a$$ for a year or two with this DM I have then save for a 5 axis and just go for it.

Couple things that I would want standard on the machine would be:

Probing
TSC
Over 60 Tools
The ability to have automation (hence the UMC1000)
HSK Spindle
15K minimum RPM (preferably more)


So I guess my question is I've worked with an older DMU50 with a Heidenhain control (I don't like the heidenhain control). Haas is appealing for the obvious reasons, Haas control is easy to use and I'm used to it already so there wouldn't be as heavy of a learning curve. Also Haas of course wins in price, but for what you would be getting.

I priced out a quick UMC1000 and it was under 250K. No idea what a DMU 50 or a 65 Monoblock costs with the options I want. I also have knowledge of the difference of the DMU series and Monoblock series other than a better casting from what I've briefly read.

I've worked with Celios on a NLX2500 and I'm warming up to it, I'd like to play with it on a Mill but just have no access to one. Touch screen doesn't scare me as it is the future despite what people say (yes I like the buttons more but still).

Machine would be cutting mainly aluminums, some steels like 4140 for tiny parts. Then I'd like to do a lot of surfacing work so I don't know if a Mono or a DMU would be better for that, someone chime in.


Some of this may be out of order but I think I covered about everything, let me know what you guys think. :D
 
I think you should ask your Haas salesman why the UMC instead of the Matsuura MX-520 or MX-330 that they also sell. The thing about true 5 axis, it is not the machine to short change yourself on options. Scales should not be an option. High speed machining control features should not be an option. Let alone center point control kinetics.
 
Mori seems very proud of their nameplates. Based on the pricing I got you could buy two of those Hass machines for one DMU with automation. You may be in the ballpark for the CMX U which is 3+2 only.

Or maybe our salesman was doing the thing where they come back later and say "oh, those were just *budgetary* quotes!" to see if I'm an idiot.
 
I think you should ask your Haas salesman why the UMC instead of the Matsuura MX-520 or MX-330 that they also sell. The thing about true 5 axis, it is not the machine to short change yourself on options. Scales should not be an option. High speed machining control features should not be an option. Let alone center point control kinetics.

I think you're well over $400k for a well-optioned MX-330 PC10 (since he's asking about automation)? I'm not about to argue that the ROI is there, or that the Hass is in the same league, but it is significantly more money.
 
<snip/ for clarity>

Some of the parts I'm currently making are three set ups and would be one set ups on a 5 axis machine.


Just a question really, are you 100% sure about that ^^^ ?


Like... You don't have to flip the part / (re-fixture) after first ops on 5 axis ? [Minimum two set ups ? VS. your 3 existing ones ?].


Is there a 6th side you have to get to (after first ops) or really 3 more sides , or really (if doing tricky blends etc. can almost be a second set of 5 sides.).

The company I'm making most of my parts for also have a couple higer ticket parts that need a 5 axis to be competitive with. If I had one I would have a very high chance of getting them to outsource said parts to my future 5 axis machine.

^^^ Here the actual part geometry and reference surfaces and tolerances by which they need to reference each-other (by) becomes more important, as well as any surface finish and 3d contouring issues or whether full sim 5 axis is really necessary for your part families ? (nice to have but not mission critical (kind of thing ?)).

Sounds kinda positional 3+2 / 4+1 ?

Orthogonal surface features or do you have funky angles ?
 
Just a question really, are you 100% sure about that ^^^ ?


Like... You don't have to flip the part / (re-fixture) after first ops on 5 axis ? [Minimum two set ups ? VS. your 3 existing ones ?].


Is there a 6th side you have to get to (after first ops) or really 3 more sides , or really (if doing tricky blends etc. can almost be a second set of 5 sides.).



^^^ Here the actual part geometry and reference surfaces and tolerances by which they need to reference each-other (by) becomes more important, as well as any surface finish and 3d contouring issues or whether full sim 5 axis is really necessary for your part families ? (nice to have but not mission critical (kind of thing ?)).

Sounds kinda positional 3+2 / 4+1 ?

Orthogonal surface features or do you have funky angles ?



The current aluminum parts I'm running are could be made in one set up on a 5 axis, just leaving some small tabs on one of the flat edges and break it off by hand and flat sand. Would be really nice.

As far as the other 5 axis parts go, they have some weird angles that would benefit from sim 5 axis swarf type tool paths. These parts would be 2 set ups but you would hit a lot of the features in the OP1 which would be really beneficial.
 
<snip>


Couple things that I would want standard on the machine would be:

Probing
TSC
Over 60 Tools
The ability to have automation (hence the UMC1000)
HSK Spindle
15K minimum RPM (preferably more)


So I guess my question is I've worked with an older DMU50 with a Heidenhain control (I don't like the heidenhain control). Haas is appealing for the obvious reasons, Haas control is easy to use and I'm used to it already so there wouldn't be as heavy of a learning curve. Also Haas of course wins in price, but for what you would be getting.

I priced out a quick UMC1000 and it was under 250K. No idea what a DMU 50 or a 65 Monoblock costs with the options I want. I also have knowledge of the difference of the DMU series and Monoblock series other than a better casting from what I've briefly read.

I've worked with Celios on a NLX2500 and I'm warming up to it, I'd like to play with it on a Mill but just have no access to one. Touch screen doesn't scare me as it is the future despite what people say (yes I like the buttons more but still).

Machine would be cutting mainly aluminums, some steels like 4140 for tiny parts. Then I'd like to do a lot of surfacing work so I don't know if a Mono or a DMU would be better for that, someone chime in.


Some of this may be out of order but I think I covered about everything, let me know what you guys think. :D

Given you are in Washington State ?

For around $260K you might consider Hardinge Bridgeport XT630 5AX … Gosiger Northwest (for Hardinge Turning & Milling), are in your area. So on that one you have possibility of Heidenhain iTNC 640 FS or Siemens 640 DS. (I know control wise that's not your first choice.).


Hardinge has been going through a bumpy period, however the western region / west coast Hardinge (offices) and sales manager(s) for that region seem pretty solid. "They" have shown some interest in folks running with the Heidenhain control, so if you are willing to put the time and work in you might be able to negotiate a decent price (If that is of any interest to you). 40 tools as standard rather than 60. Just confirm that the tool changers actually work !


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With Dr. Mori's new price structure … DMU 50 3rd gen is going to be about $300K to $350K (for what you are looking for) [automation capable + 60 tools.].


DMU 65 mononblock (or similar) used to have some real deals of the order of $300K (for a package) BUT now they have jacked things up to $400 to $460 K.


____________________________________________________________________________________________________________


Ergonomics and part size and fixturing and size of the "Mill head" assembly is a very big deal (I'll come back to that later perhaps).


____________________________________________________________________________________________________________


Personally I think the Matsuura MX-520 really put the "Cat amongst the pigeons " for price performance (originally), where for around the $300K "band" I.e. $280K to $350K (depending on what combo of basic options you want) made it the "Logical choice".


Other than the HAAS (which may or may not deliver what you need depending on your parts / tolerances , but might be a GOOD fit for what you want to do.) … Other MTBs in your price band worth considering might be MAZAK and Doosan.
 
DMU 50 3rd gen ergonomic + fixturing / workholding solutions ...


^^^ Check this out for ergonomics + how far you might have to reach into the machine with various set-ups.

________________________


Random side note" I have a torn disk (those don't repair themselves) / injured lower back so for me machines that have a "Knuckle style"/ cantilevered with support joint or bearing (like the newer Haas UMC- 1000 ) makes what you want to get to on the table further away/ lean / step into machine.


Something like the MAZAK J-600 has that same stick out support bearing facing the door BUT to the operator has a little "Nook" cut -out so they can get close to the table.

Long term work / back safety I like machines you can get close to the work and stand relatively upright... Different if you have pallet system of course.

Just as a side note the MX -520 is very nice in the sense it's really easy to get close to the table/ step into the machine without actually having to literally step into the machine.

 
As long as people are discussing this price range, don't forget
GF Mikron

Got a 36Kw 20k rpm hsk 60 tool with 7 pallet in front of me right now.
nobody does probing better than Heidenhain, but it can be had with a Fanuc 0i-MD
 

^^^ Check this out for ergonomics + how far you might have to reach into the machine with various set-ups.

________________________


Random side note" I have a torn disk (those don't repair themselves) / injured lower back so for me machines that have a "Knuckle style"/ cantilevered with support joint or bearing (like the newer Haas UMC- 1000 ) makes what you want to get to on the table further away/ lean / step into machine.


Something like the MAZAK J-600 has that same stick out support bearing facing the door BUT to the operator has a little "Nook" cut -out so they can get close to the table.

Long term work / back safety I like machines you can get close to the work and stand relatively upright... Different if you have pallet system of course.

Just as a side note the MX -520 is very nice in the sense it's really easy to get close to the table/ step into the machine without actually having to literally step into the machine.


I've looked at MX machines and I definitely like how they thought of those little details like you mentioned (easily step into the machine).

I walked through their booth at IMTS and from what I remember they just use a standard Fanuc Control which I've used on lathes and older fanuc controls on Mills before, so that would be better than Heidenhain by a long shot.

Looking at Selways and Matsuuras site the MX330 has the 60 tools standard, didn't see an option for HSK but I'm assuming that is doable.

Any idea on price for just the standalone machine then a price with the pallet system add on?
 
As long as people are discussing this price range, don't forget
GF Mikron

Got a 36Kw 20k rpm hsk 60 tool with 7 pallet in front of me right now.
nobody does probing better than Heidenhain, but it can be had with a Fanuc 0i-MD

What did that machine cost you? Did you buy it new? What kind of parts are you running? Give me some details! :D
 
As long as people are discussing this price range, don't forget
GF Mikron

Got a 36Kw 20k rpm hsk 60 tool with 7 pallet in front of me right now.
nobody does probing better than Heidenhain, but it can be had with a Fanuc 0i-MD

Ergonomics / access to the table is supposed to be pretty good on those (right ? / so I hear ?) Is it like two doors move apart so you can get closer to the table.


How is the height of the table to deal with ?
 
What did that machine cost you? Did you buy it new? What kind of parts are you running? Give me some details! :D

I know it's competitive with the Mats and DMU, but i don't actually know the pricing. Not MY machine.
hope to see the guys running a 6" impeller on it someday.
 
Ergonomics / access to the table is supposed to be pretty good on those (right ? / so I hear ?) Is it like two doors move apart so you can get closer to the table.


How is the height of the table to deal with ?

construction kinematics are just like the UMC, so you do have a secondary trunnion support bearing you can rest your balls on. (not really)
 
I've looked at MX machines and I definitely like how they thought of those little details like you mentioned (easily step into the machine).

I walked through their booth at IMTS and from what I remember they just use a standard Fanuc Control which I've used on lathes and older fanuc controls on Mills before, so that would be better than Heidenhain by a long shot.

Looking at Selways and Matsuuras site the MX330 has the 60 tools standard, didn't see an option for HSK but I'm assuming that is doable.

Any idea on price for just the standalone machine then a price with the pallet system add on?



My quotes are wildly out of date and things vary (depending which rock pool you are in/territory).


It used to be basic sim 5 axis MX-520 with laser tool setter and (slower spindle) but 60 tools were of the order of $330K ish delivered to my floor.

Kinda thought the MX 330 was supposed to be in the $250K range a few years ago... (Work envelope seems surprisingly good, for the foot print).

The Newer Fanuc control on that looks pretty nice + CAMPLETE as standard (that's a good selling point).


As I say current price structure could be wildly different and also depends how serious one might be about enhanced automation ?


Odd my local vendor wants to push me to Makino but is required to supply alternate/ competitive prices on HAAS equipment (from time to time beyond what the HAAS website might tell you). For some reason it's interesting to see what and why a sales individual is more open and responsive to supplying prices on some MTBS but not on others.

2outof3's
comment is interesting as locally our vendor sells HAAS and Matsuura and Makino. (not sure exactly how that all fits together).
 
construction kinematics are just like the UMC, so you do have a secondary trunnion support bearing you can rest your balls on. (not really)

Jolly good*... :D

______________________________________________________________________________________________

* Right now my balls are 33" inches from the ground but in a few years as I enter my 50's and then head towards my 60's that may not always be the case...
 
My quotes are wildly out of date and things vary (depending which rock pool you are in/territory).



The Newer Fanuc control on that looks pretty nice + CAMPLETE as standard (that's a good selling point).
Mikrons come with CAMplete also, so that takes any BIG Heidenhain control trepidation out of the picture
 
Mikrons come with CAMplete also, so that takes any BIG Heidenhain control trepidation out of the picture

As far as Heidenhain controls go. My rookie understanding is it's a german control and that's it. Was Heidenhain built to specialize in something specific?

Never quite understood why I see so many machines with Heidenhain controls in the states (for the reason I stated above) so I'm curious what is its pros and cons, cons for me is it's not easy to learn from the start.
 
@Brick




^^^ I think one of the main stand outs on the HAAS UMC 1000 is the 40" x 25 " x 25 " travels...


They have made some mechanical improvements to the rotational axes over the 750 (but still a good ten to 15 arc seconds broader rotational tolerances/accuracies than most Japanese machines in the same price bracket).


I believe if you want the pallet system with the UMC-1000 it's not a retro-grade/ upgradeable option... I believe if you want the pallet system you have to buy the pallet system with the machine the UMC-1000 (you can't add it on later, unless they changed their policy on all that a few months ago ?).
 
As far as Heidenhain controls go. My rookie understanding is it's a german control and that's it. Was Heidenhain built to specialize in something specific?

Never quite understood why I see so many machines with Heidenhain controls in the states (for the reason I stated above) so I'm curious what is its pros and cons, cons for me is it's not easy to learn from the start.
So many controls, so few years in life, eh?
well they have quite a few buttons on the panel which at first is certainly intimidating for sure. But once you learn then, they are literally at your finger tips, so it works into a positive, instead of getting lost in fanuc soft keys. Hiedy has some navigation quirks, but nothing insurmountable.
Some of the 'why' is the European idea of programming and setting up concurrently at the control. So some of the conversational buttons americans will rarely use.
But seriously, NOBODY can touch the ease of conversationally probing your setup. Put your part on cockeyed and probe to set Plane-spatial? no problem.
 








 
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