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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by wheelieking71 View Post
    I'm totally on your side. But, that is a big investment in one reliable lady that could get hit by a crashing plane.
    You may want to budget in finding her some help.
    the problem is not the budget, its finding people that arent retards. the good thing is that deburring parts is at least not nearly as complex as setting up 6 ops on 1 part across several different machines.

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    Originally, I thought Idiocracy was a comedy. Watched it again to discover it's actually a documentary.

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    Quote Originally Posted by empwoer View Post
    the problem is not the budget, its finding people that arent retards. the good thing is that deburring parts is at least not nearly as complex as setting up 6 ops on 1 part across several different machines.
    But, you are placing parts in the hands of often low skill level and low paid folks when the parts are often at, or near, their highest point of value.

    Over the years, I’ve seen hundreds of thousands of dollars in parts scrapped due to deburr mistakes. Just before I retired, the shop I was at started a program to look at parts that needed hand deburr as a defect in the machining process. The parts were assessed to see if steps could taken at the machining ops to eliminate need for manual deburr in a cost effective way. Would be interesting to see how that program turned out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garwood View Post
    Originally, I thought Idiocracy was a comedy. Watched it again to discover it's actually a documentary.

    The future is now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vancbiker View Post
    But, you are placing parts in the hands of often low skill level and low paid folks when the parts are often at, or near, their highest point of value.

    Over the years, I’ve seen hundreds of thousands of dollars in parts scrapped due to deburr mistakes. Just before I retired, the shop I was at started a program to look at parts that needed hand deburr as a defect in the machining process. The parts were assessed to see if steps could taken at the machining ops to eliminate need for manual deburr in a cost effective way. Would be interesting to see how that program turned out.
    of course, its always a give and take. not gonna be a perfect answer. just doing what we think is gonna be best for our situation.

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    When Tom Bailey started talking about his Haas that hasn't run since they installed it I got furious. That is his first machine purchase on what amounts to a startup venture and those clowns delivered a machine that wasn't through the design and testing phase.

    Shame on Tom for signing acceptance, and for keeping the thing on his floor and making payments before it was making chips, but he's new and a nice guy.

    He should have Haas pick it up and pay him back plus lost wages and expenses, and get something that works.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2outof3 View Post
    Different horses for different courses. Costier spindles do not always mean more productivity. You and I both know, that the highest quantity production parts are not made by 5 axis machines.
    Oh, I totally agree... for now!

    I think it is broadly true that if you were to look at series production work today, you could make a generalized statement that 3 axis machines are more productive than 5 axis machines and you would be mostly correct (I'm hedging a lot because there are always many exceptions, right?). That isn't necessarily because of anything intrinsic to those machines, a big part of it is because design engineers have been encouraged for decades to simplify their parts around a 3 axis/2 Op world, where they might be lucky to have a 4th. This isn't always successful (see: Boeing), but most of the engineers I know grok the concept of orthogonal parts and design around a 3 axis with (if lucky) 4th indexes.'

    This isn't going to be true forever, and design engineers watch YouTube just like the rest of us. They've seen your M200 videos; why the hell can't they have the production flexibility a machine like that offers?

    As I keep saying - the Future is 5 Axis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by empwoer View Post
    DING DING DING DING!
    jesus fucking christ, i wish people would get off their high horse and stop with the retarded blanket statements.
    there's no black and white, everything is give and take.
    Talk about blanket statements!!!

    Just went around the shop and counted the currently running or scheduled to-be-run jobs.
    There are 24 of them, and not a single one would be better served on a 5 axis. NOT A SINGLE FUCKING ONE!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeymourDumore View Post
    Talk about blanket statements!!!

    Just went around the shop and counted the currently running or scheduled to-be-run jobs.
    There are 24 of them, and not a single one would be better served on a 5 axis. NOT A SINGLE FUCKING ONE!!!
    at your shop, at ours, almost every single one could be done faster/more efficient and accurate on a 5 axis in one, or 2 ops max.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeymourDumore View Post
    Just went around the shop and counted the currently running or scheduled to-be-run jobs.
    There are 24 of them, and not a single one would be better served on a 5 axis. NOT A SINGLE FUCKING ONE!!!
    Again, you think this is a natural occurrence? It isn't like part designs just come from the sky like mana from heaven.

    Design engineers are being pressed to do two things - reduce the BOM and shrink product volumes. The way they often get there is to take multi-part assemblies comprised of many simple parts and combine them into one component of moderate/high complexity. Examples of this would be Apple's machined unibody laptop chassis, or Tesla's Gigapress initiative or OctoValve cooling manifold.

    There is always going to be a big ass market for commodity 3 axis machining and production; smart folks with a lot of hustle are always going to be able to print money with a room full of 3 axis VMCs... but they are absolutely fighting the wrong side of the value curve, and the level of pricing aggression and smarts they will need to deploy will ever increase.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeymourDumore View Post
    Talk about blanket statements!!!

    Just went around the shop and counted the currently running or scheduled to-be-run jobs.
    There are 24 of them, and not a single one would be better served on a 5 axis. NOT A SINGLE FUCKING ONE!!!
    While this is possible, it is also possible that you just can't see how the process could be improved with 5 axis machines. If your parts are truly just top and bottom 3 axis jobs with no side holes, ok. Add a couple side holes and that can change.

    I've setup 3 axis jobs on the trunnion just because the setup is faster and easier; work offset is always center of rotation, trunnion and workholding are already modelled. Then the customer gives me a revision to add 3 equally spaced side holes, and all I have to do is add a tool and update the program; setup remains the same, cycle time is 30 seconds longer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mhajicek View Post
    While this is possible, it is also possible that you just can't see how the process could be improved with 5 axis machines. If your parts are truly just top and bottom 3 axis jobs with no side holes, ok. Add a couple side holes and that can change.

    I've setup 3 axis jobs on the trunnion just because the setup is faster and easier; work offset is always center of rotation, trunnion and workholding are already modelled. Then the customer gives me a revision to add 3 equally spaced side holes, and all I have to do is add a tool and update the program; setup remains the same, cycle time is 30 seconds longer.
    dont bother, cant teach an old dog new tricks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by empwoer View Post
    dont bother, cant teach an old dog new tricks.

    Great!
    Please, tell me Oh Enlightened One how you're going to put 16 parts on a single 5 axis?
    Or 4 pcs of 12" long AL extrusions on the other?
    5 separate vises completely set up for 3 different parts on the 3rd, all awaiting parts from the lathe?
    Double Kurt vise on the Minimill with 2 Inco parts, 14 minute cycle time. All drilling, reaming and porting of 15 holes/ea. All on one side, no flip. Your 5 axis can drill 30 holes faster without need for index?

    Not saying they don't have their place. They absolutely do.
    If I have a need for one, I will go and get one.
    Almost did 2 years ago when a VERY sizeable request came about. Thankfully it all fell apart due to outside circumstances before I pulled the trigger.
    And I say thankfully as I would be really fucking pissed right now running bullshit 2op parts one at a time on a 5 axis.

    But hey Wizards, Go have at it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeymourDumore View Post
    Great!
    Please, tell me Oh Enlightened One how you're going to put 16 parts on a single 5 axis?
    Or 4 pcs of 12" long AL extrusions on the other?
    5 separate vises completely set up for 3 different parts on the 3rd, all awaiting parts from the lathe?
    Double Kurt vise on the Minimill with 2 Inco parts, 14 minute cycle time. All drilling, reaming and porting of 15 holes/ea. All on one side, no flip. Your 5 axis can drill 30 holes faster without need for index?

    Not saying they don't have their place. They absolutely do.
    If I have a need for one, I will go and get one.
    Almost did 2 years ago when a VERY sizeable request came about. Thankfully it all fell apart due to outside circumstances before I pulled the trigger.
    And I say thankfully as I would be really fucking pissed right now running bullshit 2op parts one at a time on a 5 axis.

    But hey Wizards, Go have at it!



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    Quote Originally Posted by SeymourDumore View Post
    Great!
    Please, tell me Oh Enlightened One how you're going to put 16 parts on a single 5 axis?
    Or 4 pcs of 12" long AL extrusions on the other?
    5 separate vises completely set up for 3 different parts on the 3rd, all awaiting parts from the lathe?
    Double Kurt vise on the Minimill with 2 Inco parts, 14 minute cycle time. All drilling, reaming and porting of 15 holes/ea. All on one side, no flip. Your 5 axis can drill 30 holes faster without need for index?

    Not saying they don't have their place. They absolutely do.
    If I have a need for one, I will go and get one.
    Almost did 2 years ago when a VERY sizeable request came about. Thankfully it all fell apart due to outside circumstances before I pulled the trigger.
    And I say thankfully as I would be really fucking pissed right now running bullshit 2op parts one at a time on a 5 axis.

    But hey Wizards, Go have at it!
    its called pallet pools bud, you should really explore the technology of the 21st century, its pretty neat.

    12" long extrusion? how is that an issue?
    5 separate vises for 3 different parts = different pallets which you can set up WHILE the machine is running other shit.
    are you serious right now? this is some basic level shit with 5 axis machining, are you just unaware of that or trolling me?

    if you cant figure out how to run more than 1 part at a time on a 5 axis, then you're right, you got no fucking business with a machine like that, stick to your old dog tricks.

    edit: you've GOT to be trolling me...
    here's an example of a tiny part i used to make on a 5 axis. 1.25" long x .75 x .3"
    would be a pain in the dick to do one by one from every side in soft jaws. cycle time per part is only about 10-15 mins, but put a bunch of them on a tombstone similar to this and now you can walk away for 1+ hrs and work on something else, come back to them having a tiny tab holding them on, snap off, hit the belt sander for 5 seconds each and you're done.
    tombstone.jpg

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    I don't even have a pallet system, and for small parts I can do 24 per button push. If my runs were longer I'd make a bigger tombstone and fit 48. Machine three sides and part almost off, snap off by hand and deburr one edge. Just gotta know how to fixture. Not saying it's for every part, but there are a lot of "3 axis" parts that can be made more efficiently on a 3+2 machine or even just a 3+1.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mhajicek View Post
    I don't even have a pallet system, and for small parts I can do 24 per button push. If my runs were longer I'd make a bigger tombstone and fit 48. Machine three sides and part almost off, snap off by hand and deburr one edge. Just gotta know how to fixture. Not saying it's for every part, but there are a lot of "3 axis" parts that can be made more efficiently on a 3+2 machine or even just a 3+1.
    this is no different from shop owners that have only used haas machines. in their eyes, its the greatest thing ever, but they're ignorant to how many options are out there that will make them a TON more money if they have the skills and imagination to utilize them properly. ignorance is bliss.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SeymourDumore View Post
    Not saying they don't have their place. They absolutely do.
    If I have a need for one, I will go and get one.
    Almost did 2 years ago when a VERY sizeable request came about. Thankfully it all fell apart due to outside circumstances before I pulled the trigger.
    And I say thankfully as I would be really fucking pissed right now running bullshit 2op parts one at a time on a 5 axis.

    But hey Wizards, Go have at it!
    Like Andy said, horses for courses...

    But if I was starting from scratch today? I would have bought an M200 and not an S700. All of my production is on pallets with single SKU flow (all parts for a product, Op1 and Op2, on a pallet, on the 4th) and an M200 would be ideal for that.

    Even the big shops with Robos/Speedios around here? They all do single-piece flow with automation cells and 4 axis setups... they would be better off investing their new machines in M200s. Why?

    - Better machine integration. You aren't bolting an axis on a table, easier to align, the control is dialed in, easier to service (which is a huge deal). If/when something gets knocked, the variability of each axis lets me dial it in way easier, without relying on perfect fixtures, perfect 4th alignment.

    - Cheaper. You take a $100k machine, bolt a $20k 4th on it, then spend $20k on a custom trunnion. Fuck - just buy the $140k machine that came from the factory like that... plus a whole extra axis to boot!

    - Dramatically improved design flexibility for the folks in the engineering office going forward. Once your fleet is all 5 axis (even just 3+2), you now lock a whole new level of possible complexity you essentially get for free.

    The other thing about starting out today is that you're going into a market where 3 Axis shops are a commodity. Every Tom, Dick, and Harry has a VF2 and you're bidding against folks who are likely to be more skilled, more capitalized, and more connected to get 3 axis work. You put your shingle up with a 5 axis mill? You're still competing against a lot of people, but there is way less blood in the water.

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  32. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeymourDumore View Post
    Talk about blanket statements!!!

    Just went around the shop and counted the currently running or scheduled to-be-run jobs.
    There are 24 of them, and not a single one would be better served on a 5 axis. NOT A SINGLE FUCKING ONE!!!
    I'd consider that a pretty enviable position to be in if it's true, however I'm skeptical that it's really true.

    The only type of part that is not better served on a 5 axis is the type that can be flipped once and finished. The second there is so much as a hole through side of it, that part becomes easier on a 5ax machine. You can argue that the size of the part or the desire to do 100 of them at once or whatever rules out 5ax, any maybe it does rule out doing it on anything that's currently available. Doesn't mean that part would not be "better served on a 5ax" - which goes back to GK's "the future is 5ax"

    Here in my shop, it's once in a blue moon that I see an inquiry cross my desk for a part that can be done in two parallel ops. I don't know why that is, it's not like we cannot be competitive on gravy jobs, we just never, ever get asked to do them. I guess our customers just send all their simple parts to China or whatever. Same with quantities. If I get an inquiry to do a hundred of something I'll mark that day on the calendar.

    Practically everything that we get offered has both turning and milling ops, and milling ops from multiple sides and angles. So we bought a 5ax millturn, and no surprise at all it is by far the most utilised machine on our floor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gregormarwick View Post
    I'd consider that a pretty enviable position to be in if it's true, however I'm skeptical that it's really true.

    The only type of part that is not better served on a 5 axis is the type that can be flipped once and finished. The second there is so much as a hole through side of it, that part becomes easier on a 5ax machine. You can argue that the size of the part or the desire to do 100 of them at once or whatever rules out 5ax, any maybe it does rule out doing it on anything that's currently available. Doesn't mean that part would not be "better served on a 5ax" - which goes back to GK's "the future is 5ax"

    Here in my shop, it's once in a blue moon that I see an inquiry cross my desk for a part that can be done in two parallel ops. I don't know why that is, it's not like we cannot be competitive on gravy jobs, we just never, ever get asked to do them. I guess our customers just send all their simple parts to China or whatever. Same with quantities. If I get an inquiry to do a hundred of something I'll mark that day on the calendar.

    Practically everything that we get offered has both turning and milling ops, and milling ops from multiple sides and angles. So we bought a 5ax millturn, and no surprise at all it is by far the most utilised machine on our floor.
    nah man, clearly you dont know what you're talking about, its all about having dozens of vertical 3 axis mills with bajillion vises and setups in each one... /sarcasm


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