Haimer position indicator question, metric vs imperial

Stang Bladeworks · Sep 12, 2020

I am looking to get a Haimer position indicator for a CAT 40 spindle. Apparently Haimer only makes the metric one with an integrated CAT 40 body. All my work is in imperial and I think of all my dimensions in thousandths. I would rather have an indicator in thousandths all things being equal. If I go with an imperial indicator I would need to use a solid end mill holder.

I am thinking I would use this to set work offsets as I can't afford probing right now. If I am just dialing in a position to zero it seems like the units don't matter.

I guess my question is am I overlooking something that may affect me down the road? What have other people done?

Any input is greatly appreciated.

aarongough · Sep 12, 2020

I use an imperial Haimer with the 1/2" shank, mounted in a Maritool solid endmill holder. Never had even the slightest issue with that setup, though you will want to make sure that holder is dedicated to the haimer and it's never taken out otherwise you'll constantly be mucking about getting it setup again.

Shouldn't be any issue using the metric version either. I really only use mine to set 'zero', not for measuring anything outside of the zero position though, so if you think you will have other uses for it then maybe imperial is the way to go.

I have found with the Haimer I have zero desire for a probe for setups. Squaring up a vise is really fast with the Haimer, no idea how you would actually do that with a probe as it's only 'on or off' and gives you no idea how much the vise is out of square. Locating a corner is similarly fast with the Haimer. I have also used it to reasonably accurately locate the center of some larger bores using the Fadal center finding macro, however the Haimer Centro is definitely more well suited to that.

The only thing that a probe would be great for in my shop is in-process inspection. If you're not doing that then I think a probe is likely wasted money unless you have to probe every part you put in the machine or you're constantly tearing down setups. I use dedicated fixture plates with repeatable positioning and honestly there are months that go by where I don't even touch the Haimer...

ripperj · Sep 12, 2020

I have a similar set-up, a 3/4” shank inch version in a dedicated ER40 collet, I never take it out... I love it

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

aarongough · Sep 12, 2020

ripperj said:
I have a similar set-up, a 3/4” shank inch version in a dedicated ER40 collet, I never take it out... I love it

Mine is likely 3/4" as well, just said 1/2" from memory! Either way the straight shank versions definitely work fine!

Brian · Sep 12, 2020

Just a thought, but I suspect the integral shank version is quite a bit more expensive than straight shank. If you ever bang it up, it will be more expensive to replace, and if it's repairable, it will be more expensive to ship because of the weight. I would go with a straight shanked version and leave it in the holder, that's what I do with my Schorn (similar to the Haimer).

Pete Deal · Sep 12, 2020

I work with imperial units too and would not want a metric haimer. Mostly go to zero with it and zero is zero but at times I wind up having to use an edge that's not my zero but a known distance from zero. If this offset is small I just over or under dial the haimer and move on.

I think Brian has very good point too. For this reason I would not buy one with the integral shank. Mine also is in an endmill holder and size it has the little centering screws it can be dialed to 0.

D.D.Machine · Sep 12, 2020

I use a 3/4" in the cheapest/ shortest cat40 sidelock holder I could find ,, you have to adjust the TIR when you mount them in any holder so runout of the holder is no big deal ,,, just order a couple new fingers when you buy the Haimer

I don`t know why but if you have a spare part on the shelf you well never need it ,,, if you don`t have a spare you well need one EVERY TIME .

gregormarwick · Sep 12, 2020

The integral shank haimer is identical to the round shank one. The round shank and the 40 taper arbour are interchangeable.

I used to use Haimers on all our mills, now everything is Renishaw, but we still have one old war horse that has the Haimer.

For all intents and purposes, the units will not matter. You're really always dialling to zero, and even in fringe cases where you might not, as in Pete's example, you can still just dial to zero and add the offset on the control, which is what I tend to do anyway.

On the metric Haimer, the diameter of the stylus is matched to it's length and to the scale on the indicator. Short stylus, 4mm ball, long stylus 8mm ball. I have never used an imperial Haimer, but I assume the styli are not interchangeable.

Wsurfer · Sep 12, 2020

"I don`t know why but if you have a spare part on the shelf you well never need it ,,, if you don`t have a spare you well need one EVERY TIME ."

Ain't that the truth. Just broke one friday with the vacuum cleaner sucking up piles of plastic chips :dunce:

I made it 1-1/2 years without breaking one. Just installed my last spare, so...

Just ordered 2 more tips.

Mud · Sep 12, 2020

I have 3 3D tasters and all are mounted in extended collet chucks. I do that so I (or an operator) can hold onto it easily and securely, A plus is not needing to rapid the head down as far as if it were in a short holder

Vancbiker · Sep 12, 2020

aarongough said:
.......Squaring up a vise is really fast with the Haimer, no idea how you would actually do that with a probe as it's only 'on or off' and gives you no idea how much the vise is out of square........

If you have probing fully implemented on your machine you don't dial in a vise. You mount it and just run the angle finding probe routine and it returns a G68 coordinate rotation value to use. You can write the angular result to a variable and then have a G68 line in your program assign the value in the variable to the R address.

aarongough · Sep 13, 2020

Vancbiker said:
If you have probing fully implemented on your machine you don't dial in a vise. You mount it and just run the angle finding probe routine and it returns a G68 coordinate rotation value to use. You can write the angular result to a variable and then have a G68 line in your program assign the value in the variable to the R address.

I always wondered if that was how people did it... Makes sense, but still seems backwards to me to not make it square!

Vancbiker · Sep 13, 2020

aarongough said:
I always wondered if that was how people did it... Makes sense, but still seems backwards to me to not make it square!

You are not the only person that has that feeling. Machinists are one of the more hidebound groups of people you'll find. Often though if you give them something new to use they'll eventually come around.

Many years ago, I set up a very nice "semi-CNC" Okamoto surface grinder for a tooling group at a large aerospace manufacturer. Among the many cool things it could do was an "auto sizing" function. Essentially run the first part and it would then on its own it would repeat the cycle on subsequent parts. When I did the operation training, all the guys being trained were telling me they were not going to use that function. Ever! "Just show us how to run it manually". I told them I had to show to them as it was part of my job. They all grumbled about wasting their time but sat through it.

Sometime later I had to do a service call on it to replace a bad solenoid valve. One of the toolmakers there told me that they all were using the auto size feature and ran as much as possible through the machine. He also said their other grinders now sat most of the time and asked how soon I'd have it running as he had 5 plates to grind and did not want to have to use one of the old machines.

Mud · Sep 13, 2020

I don't use the G68 function because it's not functional outside of the program. If I want to check something by using the control as a DRO, the numbers are meaningless if the vise or fixture is not square to the machine. Are there controls where this is not true, where the entire machine coordinate system is rotated?

SeymourDumore · Sep 14, 2020

I don't know ... but put me squarely (pun) in the camp of those who'd rather have a square vise than a rotated program.

With that said, if you're using this on a CNC, then metric vs. imperial doesn't matter that much as you'll likely be using the machine's readout anyway.

As far as integrated vs. straight shank, I'd go with the straight shank.
I have three ( 2 tasters and 1 co-ax), all in their dedicated ER32 holder.

Wsurfer · Sep 14, 2020

Seems like I'm always having to square up multiple vises to hold larger parts. The Haimer works pretty well sweeping along the jaw facees to get them aligned to each other. Does Renishaw or others have a probing routine to make this process faster ?. Never used or owned an electronic probe.

Vancbiker · Sep 14, 2020

Wsurfer said:
Seems like I'm always having to square up multiple vises to hold larger parts. The Haimer works pretty well sweeping along the jaw facees to get them aligned to each other. Does Renishaw or others have a probing routine to make this process faster ?. Never used or owned an electronic probe.

Renishaw or any other electronic probe is not the correct tool for squaring up or aligning multiple vises. That's what indicators are for.

If you want to align the machine's coordinate system using G68 to an arbitrarily located vise or multiple vises holding a long part, an electronic probe is perfect for that.

trochoidalpath · Sep 15, 2020

aarongough said:
Squaring up a vise is really fast with the Haimer, no idea how you would actually do that with a probe as it's only 'on or off' and gives you no idea how much the vise is out of square.

Others have mentioned finding the angle and doing coordinate rotation. That bugs me, I like having my vise square to the spindle....

I zero G55 against one edge on the fixed jaw, then move over a bit less than inches and touch the other edge. This tells me which direction the vise is rotated. Now I just have to tap it in to make the two position values the same. Takes me about five minutes if I’m being super fussy and trying to get it dead on. Check it with a indicator afterwards just to be sure.

cnctoolcat · Sep 17, 2020

I purchased a Tschorn 3D indicator a couple years ago.

Even though I work in imperial, my Tschorn is metric. Doesn’t matter to me, as I use it for indicating to zero only.

I got the “value” model Tschorn, and have learned that the divisions on it are actually farther apart than the higher-priced model.

Considering each division is 0.01mm (.0004”), it is easier to sneak up on 0, with the wider divisions between lines.

Something to consider...

ToolCat

gundog · Sep 17, 2020

cnctoolcat said:
I purchased a Tschorn 3D indicator a couple years ago.

Even though I work in imperial, my Tschorn is metric. Doesn’t matter to me, as I use it for indicating to zero only.

I got the “value” model Tschorn, and have learned that the divisions on it are actually farther apart than the higher-priced model.

Considering each division is 0.01mm (.0004”), it is easier to sneak up on 0, with the wider divisions between lines.

Something to consider...

ToolCat

I bought one of each also of the Tschorn the cheap one has about .005" backlash if I overrun X or Y you must run it back far enough to pass the backlash and approach again to zero. The Slim Plus does not have near the backlash less than .001".

Haimer position indicator question, metric vs imperial

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