Hardinge Cobra Lathes?

Ox · Aug 4, 2018

I see multiple listing for Cobra 65's rating them at 7.5 HP.

I expect these to be 25hp.
These only meant for finish passes after H/T or what?

???

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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

Ox · Aug 4, 2018

OK - I did finally find 1 listing @ 25hp.

Maybe the 7.5hp guys are all copying off each others spec sheets? :nono:

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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

cameraman · Aug 4, 2018

Ox said:
I see multiple listing for Cobra 65's rating them at 7.5 HP.

I expect these to be 25hp.
These only meant for finish passes after H/T or what?

???

--------------------

Think Snow Eh!
Ox

I think you are right. Closer to 25 HP

http://www.hardingeservice.com/usr/Cobra/M C-0009500-0312.pdf

^^^ If you scroll to the end of the document* it shows the power curves...

So for Cobra 65 it's about 30 HP (not Haaaaaspwr )… and 130 ft lbs of torque down to 50 ft lbs of torque at 4000 rpm.

On page A-18 (appendix) they show a power and torque curve for the Cobra 42 where the axes are mislabeled (swapped axes) …. I love Hardinge but sooooooooo Hardinge. These curves are easy to mis-read but Hardinge swapped one of them around so I can see how folks would pull the number 7.5 HP incorrectly (that's usually the power band on driven tools). The Cobra 42 is about 28 HP.

_______________________

There's some sweet looking steals on the Harding front for second hand lathe/ turning center s I've been seeing lately.

_________________________________________________________________________________

* Finally the master document to truly master the GE Fanuc 21T control …. Mwahahahahah… not.

Ox · Aug 4, 2018

Ahhh!

I see that they are mixing up the trq and the HP ratings on the cheat sheets eh?

Sure seems like they should have seen a red flag tho ....

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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

cameraman · Aug 4, 2018

Ox said:
Ahhh!

I see that they are mixing up the trq and the HP ratings on the cheat sheets eh?

Sure seems like they should have seen a red flag tho ....

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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

Common sense or uncommonly good sense is an increasingly rare commodity these days.

I'm wondering how Hardinge are doing these days under "New Management" and a new round of financing ?

News - Turning, Milling, Grinding, Workholding, Parts, Service, Applications, Support Services

"Elmira, NY, July 13, 2018 –Hardinge Inc is pleased to announce the hiring of Craig Perry as the Director of Operations for the Elmira facility"

And then we have "Rethinking Normal" as their IMTS theme...

http://www.hardingeus.com/Portals/0/Docs/IMTS Flyer 2018.png

Kinda reminds me of "Abby-Normal" (selected brain in jar for Young Frankenstein).

^^^^ "Rethinking Normal"

What IS Hardinge "Rethinking" and what do they regard as "Normal"

Maybe they are thinking about higher tolerances as "Normal" cuz their business model is pretty much built around that. It's like they are speculating on "Tolerance futures". Hence buying all those grinding companies.

__________________________________________________ _____________________

Sneak peek of Bridgeport V 1320 certainly looks interesting and "New" Hardinge talent GT... would that be like a regular chuck based lathe with gang tooling ? (I.e. not collet based but gang tooling … I'm like Sure … How much mullah $ Tallent is not "Super Precision" or "HP" but pretty Ok ? ). Kellenberger 100 "New" … Is there ANY possibility that it could be under $200K ?

cameraman · Aug 4, 2018

Hardinge is hiring; 20 new postions for machinsits / operators

News - Turning, Milling, Grinding, Workholding, Parts, Service, Applications, Support Services

From ^^^

"With 360 employees based in Elmira, I look forward to strengthening our operations and growing our capabilities. The global demand for our products is strong and we are in a hiring mode with 20 open positions for machinists and machine operators,” said Perry. “This is an exciting time to join the company.”

With the recent announcement of Hardinge relocating their global headquarters to Berwyn, PA, Craig will be the site leader for the Elmira Facility.

Ox · Aug 4, 2018

I wonder what the deal is with the HQ move is?

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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

cameraman · Aug 4, 2018

Ox said:
I wonder what the deal is with the HQ move is?

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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

Machine Tooling Provider Hardinge Privately Acquired, Moves HQ

[I think the Privet group is in the business of "receivership" I.e. take failing companies and re-manage them to make a serious profit. Would be good name for a "Hedge" fund... ].

They seem to imply that Philadelphia is better location to manage a "global business" than Elmira NY ?

I'm not sure they know what they got themselves into but fingers crossed / best of luck... Not 100% sure that Elmira can be better managed from Philadelphia but seems to indicate that their overseas presence is much more important to them... That's where they are making money.

May take the better part of a decade to turn that "Battleship" around... No quick fixes + entrenched company culture takes time to revitalize.

DDoug · Aug 4, 2018

Ox said:
I wonder what the deal is with the HQ move is?

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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

To GTF out of New York ?

Anyplace other than Conn. or NJ has got to be better than NY.

Philly ? Ugh...

At least the samiches are better.

DDoug · Aug 4, 2018

car2 said:
Yeap, probably tax-related.

...and crime related, and Castle Doctrine related....Dam Cumo.

He's got bodyguards.....

duckfarmer27 · Aug 4, 2018

digger doug said:
To GTF out of New York ?

Anyplace other than Conn. or NJ has got to be better than NY.

Doug -

Come on, don't you get the wonderful business climate of NY ads out there in Erie? They must be playing on the Buffalo TV stations - trying to keep the asylum inmates here in NY convinced how wonderful things are here. Especially for someone like me who walks out the garage door and is looking into PA. If it were not for grandkids here all the iron would be moving somewhere else.....

But DEFINITELY not to Philly.........

Dale

DDoug · Aug 4, 2018

Dale,
NY state is but 20 miles east of me.

I avoid it at all cost's including NOT taking route 86 as a shortcut to Bradford.....

Philly, yeah, I forgot, all my rights are null & void there.

Last visit was in 1975, and I got touch the liberty bell.

EmGo · Aug 4, 2018

cameraman said:
I think the Privet group is in the business of "receivership" I.e. take failing companies and re-manage them to make a serious profit for themselves.

May take the better part of a decade to turn that "Battleship" around... No quick fixes + entrenched company culture takes time to revitalize.

The quick fix is, they are stripping it. Not von Dutch, two pp's. Betcha $100.

btw, the entrenched company culture is "making a quality product at a reasonable price and supporting it well."

Are you sure that changing it to "fuck over everybody we can sucker into paying $86,000 for cheap crap that we source in Boomfock, China for six bucks and then refuse to support while we go one vacation in the Med and fill up our 401k's" is the culture you want to turn it around into ? Because that's what these 'investment groups' do every single time

Ox, I messed with one for a few weeks .... it's just an oversized cheapskate Hardinge that doesn't deserve the name. They aren't nice. 7.5 hp is probably accurate. And the rest of the claims out there, shee-it, if you believe 20 hp on those little things I've got a 12" dick. They have 20 hp at 200% overload for .3 seconds before the drive and motor explode in a fiery cloud. How the hell are you going to put 20 hp into a 2" diameter part anyhow ?

The Cobra is not anything to write home about. Hate to disparage the name of Hardinge but in real life, no thanks. They are pretty crappy. Not made nicely at all. If you are looking, there's a clean 4 axis Superslant in Washington area for really cheap, that might be fun. You've proven you can handle old stuff

cameraman · Aug 4, 2018

EmanuelGoldstein said:
The quick fix is, they are stripping it. Not von Dutch, two pp's. Betcha $100.

btw, the entrenched company culture is "making a quality product at a reasonable price and supporting it well."

Are you sure that changing it to "fuck over everybody we can sucker into paying $86,000 for cheap crap that we source in Boomfock, China for six bucks and then refuse to support while we go one vacation in the Med and fill up our 401k's" is the culture you want to turn it around into ? Because that's what these 'investment groups' do every single time

Ox, I messed with one for a few weeks .... it's just an oversized cheapskate Hardinge that doesn't deserve the name. They aren't nice. 7.5 hp is probably accurate. And the rest of the claims out there, shee-it, if you believe 20 hp on those little things I've got a 12" dick. They have 20 hp at 200% overload for .3 seconds before the drive and motor explode in a fiery cloud. How the hell are you going to put 20 hp into a 2" diameter part anyhow ?

The Cobra is not anything to write home about. Hate to disparage the name of Hardinge but in real life, no thanks. They are pretty crappy. Not made nicely at all. If you are looking, there's a clean 4 axis Superslant in Washington area for really cheap, that might be fun. You've proven you can handle old stuff

1. I have no idea what you are talking about...

2. Please don't rewrite my words in what is allegedly a quote. Cuz that's not a quote that's a "reframe"...

Thumbs up emoticon... (hope things are still nice in blighty).

Honestly I think Hardinge do much better at serving their clients in the UK and Europe... They seem much more "On it" and "with it"...

Hardinge USA have really great people but the company is run a bit like a family business (nice people). But in terms of real service in more remote regions in the USA or even close to the Hardinge "Mother-ship" things have been kinda "Tanking".

So hopefully they have the means to turn that around.

The stuff that's built in Taiwan is pretty sound and good value in some cases and for their "Super Precision" lathes for part size vs tolerance vs stability of process for high tolerance work (can't think of anyone that can best them)… some smaller machines can but not for larger work pieces. For the "super precison" T line those are further "doctored" and tricked out at Elmira.

ThePrecisionist · Aug 20, 2018

Ox said:
I see multiple listing for Cobra 65's rating them at 7.5 HP.

I expect these to be 25hp.
These only meant for finish passes after H/T or what?

???

COBRA 42 - 7.5HP
COBRA 51 - 20 HP
COBRA 65 - 29.5 HP

Own all three models. Hold +/-.0002 tolerance, no problem daily. With .001 of chasing until warm. Take the sheet metal motor panel off and run big fan over the opening for even better thermal stability. It's a real Hardinge. Made to compete with a Haas price range. But real Hardinge spindle & dovetail X axis. Been happy with mine. My T42 is more rigid. But the Cobra's are nothing to sneeze at. Proof is in the machined parts. Not some brochure or internet comments!

EmGo · Aug 22, 2018

Conquests are nicer, especially the turret. Price used seems similar. Tool holding on the Cobra left a lot to be desired, I thought. Not to diss anyone's existing machine but more in the "if you have a choice buying used" category ...

ThePrecisionist · Aug 22, 2018

EmanuelGoldstein said:
Conquests are nicer, especially the turret. Price used seems similar. Tool holding on the Cobra left a lot to be desired, I thought. Not to diss anyone's existing machine but more in the "if you have a choice buying used" category ...

The tool holding is different on a Cobra. You had the choice of the Hardinge-style Cobra holders or VDI-style.

Most new owners seemed to have chosen the Hardinge-style.
VDI was a newer holder back then and most did not like the look of them. Or did not have other machines that utilized the VDI system.

The biggest mistake that most new owners made at the time of ordering was: Ordering the 1.250 round shank extended holders and not ordering the 1.0 HDB
(Hardinge Drill Bushing)holders. The HDB holders are far more ridged and allow you to keep the tool closer to the turret. There are uses for the 1.250 units, but I find them to be too long in most cases. Another mistake was not ordering Left-Hand stick holders. When hogging, the left hand holder allows you to put the chip load down into the casting. Right-Hand, the pressure is being put up on the turret and into space. The latter is better for finishing. The former is better for roughing. We have turned 1-3/4 304 SST hex off in one pass on our Cobra 51. Using the Left-Hand approach. Right hand, it does not like it!

One nice feature of the Hardinge Cobra holders: You are able to adjust for center height. There is a dowel system they used. My advice is to remove the dowel. This gives you the most up/down adjustment in the holder to get the tool dead-on center. Yes, it takes some time and trial and error. But once set, your tool will cut to it's best ability and last longer. It was smart of Hardinge to figure in this adjustment. Some machines you have no adjustment other than using shims.

The 51 has plenty of balls. Mori SL3 balls? No. But again it holds it's own.

Here is a funny/interesting story:
Back in 2000, a local shop owner came in to see us. He had a job which the customer wanted "As many as you can make, we'll take!" A dream right? Well no-so-much to him. Because he could not keep up with demand. And he did not want to purchase new equipment. We had just received our new Cobra 51. The job he wanted us to help with was a thin
walled steel tubing job. A cover for a laser that was selling like hotcakes. He was running this job on his Mori SL3. Getting 300 parts a day. With cut off burrs on the OD & ID after machining. He was then having his army of "Spanish Boys" de-burr them on Leblond manual lathes.

The Cobra 51 would run 600 parts in a 10 hour shift. Without cut off burrs. (better tooling/setup) Complete. Just blow it off and put them in a box and invoice.

It's a very fast and accurate machine. Standard, two-axis jobs are it's forte.

Mickey_D · Aug 22, 2018

I had a Cobra 65 for about six years. They are rated at 29HP and I believe it. We ran a 20K piece job drilling a 2" diameter hole in 5" round durabar 3" long using an inserted drill plumbed for through coolant. Got the cycle time down to 38 seconds with changing the inserts every 75 parts. After running for a couple of hours (talk about a workout - everyone would rotate on the machine) the coolant would be extremely hot - like don't touch it hot.

The machines are stout but the controls on them absolutely suck. Almost everything is accessed by soft keys and take ten times longer to setup than they should. We made good money with ours but I was glad to see it go when we sold it.

ARB · Aug 23, 2018

cameraman said:
I'm wondering how Hardinge are doing these days under "New Management" and a new round of financing ?

I've asked twice in the last couple weeks for pricing on the V1000. I got an email that said to call for deets and I did. I emailed as well. Guess I need to call again.

Usually the moment you send up the faintest of smoke signals that you're shopping these days you have phone calls every day for a spell.

cncbuilt · Feb 2, 2020

“ThePrecisionist” Which controllers do you have on your cobras?

Hardinge Cobra Lathes?

Diamond

Diamond

Diamond

Diamond

Diamond

Diamond

Diamond

Diamond

Diamond

Diamond

Stainless

Diamond

Diamond

Diamond

Aluminum

Diamond

Aluminum

Stainless

Titanium

Plastic

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