Hardinge Conquest V 1000 (experiences) and Conquest H-51 and Elmira group?
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    Default Hardinge Conquest V 1000 (experiences) and Conquest H-51 and Elmira group?

    Hello ! :-)

    Just wondered if anyone has purchased and is running a Hardinge "Bridgeport" Conquest V1000 mill?

    We have a specific application where we will be looking to purchase a V1000 mill with hardinge 4th axis and a regular two axis H-51 conquest... possibly tweaked to "Super Precision". .Really interested in the possibilities of the Elmira custom applications and work holding solutions group. [In general I like the idea that a lot of the special work holding fixtures can be shared between lathe and 4th axis, as 90 % of what we do requires really high precision turned surfaces and then mainly 4th axis + additional 2 face milling/ six sided of a lower precision].

    Our main priority is the lathe capability in terms of near grinding capability from turning (in terms of roundness/circularity and "cylindricity"). BUT thought the V1000 (costing less but well equipped) would help us go for a better lathe (as overall budget gets a little risky at the $400K mark).

    Other alternatives would be DMG Mori NLX2500/1250 or NLX2500|500 and NVX5100|40 (but may not be as good lathe wise as the H-51 but might be overkill on the NVX5100 mill and the very nice DDRT 4th axis from Mori Seiki(nice that it may be)?

    Another possibility would be Hurco VMX42i (seems like good iron) and I like how comprehensive the control really is and its associated design, but I am not confident that a TM10i, TMX10i or TM12i two axis lathe can deliver sub micron circularity and surface finish? So a Hurco solution would probably require us to outsource 25%++ of the components to be ground.

    So mainly the clincher perhaps is how good/solid/precise/accurate/rigid/reliable/ "wonderfull" is the Hardinge Conquest V1000?

    Would be really great to hear from anyone chime in... that is running one of these? [There is not one to look at yet in the Denver area and quite possibly I may be the first one to "Plump" for one of these in the State of Colorado?]



    Any viewpoints or experience or opinions on ANY of the above would be greatly appreciated or feel free to give it a really good "kicking" but mainly would be nice to hear from others that may be having a good or bad time with their V1000?

    Also FWIW we don't get to hear much discussed about Hardinge in general, so that might be nice?

    Big Cheers to All,

    Eric

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    I don't have any ownership experience, but I've had this machine quoted with the Hardinge 4th axis, and the price was very attractive. Lots of control "options" that come as standard. Looks like a really nice machine. The table moves VERY close to the operating door. (I've never seen a VMC get the table that close)

    I did get to check this machine out at Gosiger's open house a couple months ago in Ohio. It looks like a really nice machine - the nicest/best 40x20 VMC for the price maybe? The apps engineer that was demoing the machine also said that it had a more powerful spindle than the Okuma Genos mill right across the aisle from the V1000 too.

    I know this is all just window-shopping opinion, but I'd much rather spend my own money on this mill, vs. a lot of the other Chinese/Tiawanese crap-box machines out there...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jashley73 View Post
    I don't have any ownership experience, but I've had this machine quoted with the Hardinge 4th axis, and the price was very attractive. Lots of control "options" that come as standard. Looks like a really nice machine. The table moves VERY close to the operating door. (I've never seen a VMC get the table that close)

    I did get to check this machine out at Gosiger's open house a couple months ago in Ohio. It looks like a really nice machine - the nicest/best 40x20 VMC for the price maybe? The apps engineer that was demoing the machine also said that it had a more powerful spindle than the Okuma Genos mill right across the aisle from the V1000 too.

    I know this is all just window-shopping opinion, but I'd much rather spend my own money on this mill, vs. a lot of the other Chinese/Tiawanese crap-box machines out there...
    I completely agree, I think you have touched on something there especially regarding a would be Okuma Genos M560V. Our local dealers are Hartwig and they really put a firm message out there that Hartwig = Okuma... Which makes sense in terms of the history of their business and who they try to reach; but they also carry Hardinge lathes and necessarily carry the conquest V1000 and the Okuma Genos M560V. So traditionally and especially now Hartwig are going absolutely "gangbusters" with the Genos M560V. Using "wisdom" of the masses and especially the collective wisdom of what has been posted on PM forum several folks have raised the point (over the years) that there is no actual proof that a twin column machine (like an M560V) is any more rigid and precise than a C frame well designed machine of a similar weight. I think the appeal of the M560V is that is it pretty indestructible and if you are one of those shops that need to run their machines absolutely "Balls" to the wall 24/7 then the M560V is a good pick. For me I am not production oriented in that manner so I can be kind and careful with the machine. So I suspect given your comment that it maybe that the Conquest V1000 (functionally and price wise ) could be perceived as a threat to M560V sales, as the priority for some machine tool vendors is to push Okuma. If I was a betting man, that the test sheets for a V1000 would be very favorable in respect of a M560V.

    Originally the V1000 stood out a bit as an "oddball" within the Hardinge range of GX type mills but now I see that they have now introduced a GX480 APC that is in the redesigned style/beefed up/improved version (like the conquest V1000) over the regular GX/OSP version or in the same vein of the new "Bridgeport" re-imagined; I.e. a Bridgeport Conquest V480APC...

    So that leads me to believe that the V1000 may be very accurate and capable given that GX480 is a very well liked machine and maybe the rest of the GX range go "Bridgeport/conquest also". At some point in the future I will definitely get test sheets, and dynamic tests and cutting tests if the V1000 seems to be sound.

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    A double-column machine will always be inherently more rigid than a c-frame machine by design, because the force-loop is much shorter. The more Y-stroke on a c-frame machine, the worse it is. Because on a c-frame machine, spindle-to-column distance = y-stroke + clearance. Plus, the spindle-to-z-axis ways distance creates a lot of leverage on the z-axis ways when feeding in X.

    Also, a double-column machine - in the case of the Okuma's, moves the spindle in X/Z. Because the headstock casting should be much lighter/smaller than a comparable C-frame machine, I would imagine that it would have better response in Z because of this. And with regard to X now moving the spindle instead of the table - the moving mass on the X axis will be much more consistent, since the only variability in load on the X axis is the carrying weight of tool, vs. the varrying weight of the workpiece on a c-frame machine.

    Add all that together, and it all adds up. In terms of rigidity, and response. There's a reason why your higher-precision machines will use a double column arrament. Okuma, Makino, Mitsui-Seiki, Yasda, and others I'm sure all use this arrangement, for good reason.


    But, RE: the Hardinge machine - it will come in about 25-30% less expensive than the Okuma. If you don't need a super-duper mold-master VMC, the Hardinge is a very tough machine to beat at its price...

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    Waiting on 2outof3 to push the Speedio-1000

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jashley73 View Post
    A double-column machine will always be inherently more rigid than a c-frame machine by design, because the force-loop is much shorter. The more Y-stroke on a c-frame machine, the worse it is. Because on a c-frame machine, spindle-to-column distance = y-stroke + clearance. Plus, the spindle-to-z-axis ways distance creates a lot of leverage on the z-axis ways when feeding in X.

    Also, a double-column machine - in the case of the Okuma's, moves the spindle in X/Z. Because the headstock casting should be much lighter/smaller than a comparable C-frame machine, I would imagine that it would have better response in Z because of this. And with regard to X now moving the spindle instead of the table - the moving mass on the X axis will be much more consistent, since the only variability in load on the X axis is the carrying weight of tool, vs. the varrying weight of the workpiece on a c-frame machine.

    Add all that together, and it all adds up. In terms of rigidity, and response. There's a reason why your higher-precision machines will use a double column arrament. Okuma, Makino, Mitsui-Seiki, Yasda, and others I'm sure all use this arrangement, for good reason.


    But, RE: the Hardinge machine - it will come in about 25-30% less expensive than the Okuma. If you don't need a super-duper mold-master VMC, the Hardinge is a very tough machine to beat at its price...
    I like your perspective... In my case it would be very rare for me to have a part that is over 20lbs (and I'm not doing a lot of titanium or mold work per se), and the main weight is going to be a 4th axis and tail stock. So in the back of my mind I have a Makino PS 95 as it seems really accurate they throw a lot of good features in but the control is rather sparse/basic. Completely agree the M560V is a real beast for the $, but just wondering if its overkill? It's going to take me a 15 to 20 minutes to work through the logic of what you so nicely set out. I have to admit I never really thought of the M560V being able to deliver the surface finishes of a true "mold" machine; but maybe it can / really does... Which is amazing really...

    OK reading through your logic I think that's why Hardinge in a way have an appreciation of what you are saying and I guess that's why they went overboard on the Z axis of the V1000 as there are 3 trucks per guideway.

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    Hardinge.com > ProductCatalog > Product


    Machine looks awfully narrow for a 40" machine!
    Doo they have some different style way covers to facilitate that?


    -------------------------

    Think Snow Eh!
    Ox

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jashley73 View Post
    Waiting on 2outof3 to push the Speedio-1000
    He, he... 2outof3 is cool, I think there's not such a reach or presence for Yamazen and brother in Colorado or Denver... :-)

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    He, he... 2outof3 is cool, I think there's not such a reach or presence for Yamazen and brother in Colorado or Denver... :-)
    We have an excellent presence in the Denver area. In fact one of the best user bases. Over 50 new machines sold and delivered there over last 5 years. Ask Triad. They are our dealer.

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    I saw an install video two 45 minute videos on the V1000, so it shows it being put together/installed (don't know if its still on the Hardinge video feed). I think the machine is deceptive until you see people standing next to it trying to put it together... Seems quite big and I was impressed actually how long the way covers were. I think the general aspect ratio of the machine and size is deceptive... It's taller than one might imagine and bigger overall... 2.67 meters wide and over 3 meters tall; 105" x 120" (respectively)... [To my likeing actually takes up a smidge more space than I would ideally like but no big deal per se].

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2outof3 View Post
    We have an excellent presence in the Denver area. In fact one of the best user bases. Over 50 new machines sold and delivered there over last 5 years. Ask Triad. They are our dealer.
    Ooops... ;-) ,[Good to know] I think they are trying to pursue the NLX and NVX solutions from DMG Mori right now with me... It is six of one and half a dozen of the other. Really have to work the problem to chase all of the pros and cons... It's really the lathe is the key and hoping to get a reasonable two machine deal etc. but it may make sense to "break" the lines/brands. The thing that appeals to me about the Hardinge h-51 and V-1000 combo is that I can achieve the application goals and potentially save $100K over a DMG solution that is nearly as good as H-51 but has a mill NVX5100 that is probably overkill.

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    The V1000 appears to be a well appointed and constructed machine. I looked at it, I own a bunch of Hardinge stuff and I am near the Hardinge plant so they were the natural choice. Honestly, I got a SMOKING deal on the M560V and couldn't turn it down, I'm very happy with my choice.

    I can promise you that the M560 will make a better surfacing finish and do it faster than any c frame VMC out there....I hear good thing about the PS95 but I've never seen one run in person.

    Go look up a small company called Frontline Fabrication...that guy makes aftermarket car parts and he can flat run a mill. I think he might be a member here.. He owns a 560 and a 460 now and turns out automotive jewelry.

    There are a few videos of the 560 in action on his facebook. It's a fun machine to run.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    Ooops,[Good to know] I think they are trying to pursue the NLX and NVX solutions from DMG Mori right now... It is six of one and half a dozen of the other. Really have to work the problem to chase all of the pros and cons... It's really the lathe is the key and hoping to get a reasonable two machine deal etc. but it may make sense to "break" the lines.
    No problem and if you want an exceptional tight tolerance lathe, I can quote you a Takisawa TCC-1000 or TCC-2000. I have customers running this next to Okuma, Hardinge Super-precision and old Mori's. 5 digit offsetting even in metric and the D-Nano Fanuc control. Box way and hand scrapped in Japan. Can also be had with integrated loader.

    TCC Series - Yamazen



    You knew I would get around to try to sell you something.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    I saw an install video two 45 minute videos on the V1000, so it shows it being put together/installed (don't know if its still on the Hardinge video feed). I think the machine is deceptive until you see people standing next to it trying to put it together... Seems quite big and I was impressed actually how long the way covers were. I think the general aspect ratio of the machine and size is deceptive... It's taller than one might imagine and bigger overall... 2.67 meters wide and over 3 meters tall; 105" x 120" (respectively)... [To my likeing actually takes up a smidge more space than I would ideally like but no big deal per se].
    Yeah - that may be it. I know that they have been running the sheetmetal all over - enclosing e_ver_y_thing these last several yrs. I remember walking up to Ed's machine a few yrs ago, and realizing that it was the same size as my Hardinge 1000, but looked much bigger.


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    Quote Originally Posted by 2outof3 View Post
    No problem and if you want an exceptional tight tolerance lathe, I can quote you a Takisawa TCC-1000 or TCC-2000. I have customers running this next to Okuma, Hardinge Super-precision and old Mori's. 5 digit offsetting even in metric and the D-Nano Fanuc control. Box way and hand scrapped in Japan. Can also be had with integrated loader.

    TCC Series - Yamazen






    You knew I would get around to try to sell you something.
    Don't worry you can quote or try to sell me anything you like. I really love to research tings to death and map out things that are further afield (makes me feel like I have done a better job to leave no stone unturned). The thing I like about the DMG Mori NLX2500/700 for example is the longer work piece capability. Same with the Hardinge H-51 one has also about 25" work piece length but at higher precision, so we have somewhat longer pieces that we need good precision for and work pieces that are about 4" diameter and 6" long that need to be as precise as we can humanly get to without going to high end OD/ID grinding. It is possible then we split the application into two lathes, one for fabrication very high precision large bore short tapers and another lathe for longer work pieces of a more common precision. In that case a Takisawa might be a sound choice for what we need. Would be good to see test sheets on those particularly for standard cutting tests... I think with the "super precision" and Hardinge not so sure that it is that easy in practice to achieve "Super Precision" but I have a "fudge factor" in my head how that translates to fairly consistent results within our range of tolerances (perhaps).

    Feel free to PM me with any contact info etc. ... No problem :-)

    Cheers,

    Eric

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    Quote Originally Posted by XD341 View Post
    The V1000 appears to be a well appointed and constructed machine. I looked at it, I own a bunch of Hardinge stuff and I am near the Hardinge plant so they were the natural choice. Honestly, I got a SMOKING deal on the M560V and couldn't turn it down, I'm very happy with my choice.

    I can promise you that the M560 will make a better surfacing finish and do it faster than any c frame VMC out there....I hear good thing about the PS95 but I've never seen one run in person.

    Go look up a small company called Frontline Fabrication...that guy makes aftermarket car parts and he can flat run a mill. I think he might be a member here.. He owns a 560 and a 460 now and turns out automotive jewelry.

    There are a few videos of the 560 in action on his facebook. It's a fun machine to run.
    :-)

    Thanks for that... I checked out their web site and some of those parts look very very nice indeed (mainly aluminum). I agree it is hard to resist the lure of an M560V. It may be that M560V is a real V1000 "Blocker"... Have yet to bump into someone that is running one yet?

    Very interesting and I like your comment about being very close (geographically) to Hardinge.

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    I just had my sales rep in the shop last week and asked if he'd sold any V1000's, he said no.

    The price on the 560 went up 10K this year. Even with great deals it is no longer going to be in the same price range as the V1000. If the budget doesn't allow for the 560 I'd feel good buying the V1000. I think it is a better machine than a similar sized and priced HAAS. The 560 is really Okuma's premium mid sized VMC without the ability to customize. You get what you get, but what you get is Okuma's top notch product in the segment. I doubt they even sell many of the MB-56 mills anymore.

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    Quote Originally Posted by XD341 View Post
    I just had my sales rep in the shop last week and asked if he'd sold any V1000's, he said no.

    The price on the 560 went up 10K this year. Even with great deals it is no longer going to be in the same price range as the V1000. If the budget doesn't allow for the 560 I'd feel good buying the V1000. I think it is a better machine than a similar sized and priced HAAS. The 560 is really Okuma's premium mid sized VMC without the ability to customize. You get what you get, but what you get is Okuma's top notch product in the segment. I doubt they even sell many of the MB-56 mills anymore.
    I think you are spot on there; They are running some good specials but you always have to be poised to immediately pounce on those (especially with Okuma), so for longer term planning I try base things a little bit on what things cost under more normal circumstances and a good deal.

    I think for parts that weigh less than 100lbs and don't have to be in a "balls to the wall" maxed out machine production environment whether one can really tell the difference between a part produced on a V1000 versus a part produced on a M560V...? So for example if I commissioned a relevant test part in a multiple of 20 and ran that under optimum conditions on a V1000, and then ran 20 of the same test part (mainly prismatic 2 1/2D geometry) and assigned random numbers to all parts (with a look up table) and threw them all carefully into a barrel and asked someone to separate out the parts they thought were machined on an M560V versus a Conquest V1000 (according to surface finish and apparent machining quality), I would expect the two piles to contain roughly an even mix of V1000 parts with M560V parts, or perhaps see one pile with slightly more M560V parts than the other. Under such conditions I would expect the geometric accuracy to be fairly comparable with each other.

    The Makino PS 95 I would expect greater precision and part accuracy but not much difference in surface finish and perhaps be slightly more susceptible to adverse resonances that could be tweaked out. Similarly with the NVX5100 (DMGM) I would not expect anything out of the ordinary for part precision but would expect superior part finishes (perhaps) But for a lot more $$$$$.


    The fourth axis is pretty crucial to what we need to do and the fact that Hardinge has really good work holding solutions that play equally well for their fourth axis and their lathe might be a plus. The other thing is that I am looking to pick the brains of the Elmira applications group as a lot of the precision camera and lens problems we are trying to solve resemble some of the approaches that Hardinge use, so might be a good synergy there. The fact that Hardinge does not appear to have sold too many V1000's yet might get me some more leverage for some of the other elements... I.e a good deal on a V1000 4th axis and H-51 + work holding and some consulting/relevant know how... That's kinda where I am thinking of coming at it from but on the other hand I can also blow a lot more money and achieve a lot less also... :-)

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    I've seen some special-pricing offers on the Makino PS95. It might be a nice machine, but it better "bring it" for the price... I'd be hard-pressed to spend that kind of money on a 40x20 VMC. And I I were, I'd lean towards the Okuma M560, for most of the reasons I posted earlier, + the control.

    But, at $120k base-ish price for a 40x20 VMC - regardless of how good it is - I better have a pretty strong justification for it... Considering you can get into the Hardinge V1000, or Doosan, or dare I even say Haas SS territory at 30% cheaper - and 30-taper machines for even less - it would take a very clear-cut NEED for one to justify the cost of an M560, or PS95 - considering they're still just 40x20" vertical's... But between the two though, I'd lean Okuma hands down...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jashley73 View Post
    I've seen some special-pricing offers on the Makino PS95. It might be a nice machine, but it better "bring it" for the price... I'd be hard-pressed to spend that kind of money on a 40x20 VMC. And I I were, I'd lean towards the Okuma M560, for most of the reasons I posted earlier, + the control.

    But, at $120k base-ish price for a 40x20 VMC - regardless of how good it is - I better have a pretty strong justification for it... Considering you can get into the Hardinge V1000, or Doosan, or dare I even say Haas SS territory at 30% cheaper - and 30-taper machines for even less - it would take a very clear-cut NEED for one to justify the cost of an M560, or PS95 - considering they're still just 40x20" vertical's... But between the two though, I'd lean Okuma hands down...
    I completely agree that's a very lucid argument... Indeed ! :-) Especially with what you said about Makino to really "Bring it!"...The test sheets seem really rather very good for that machine and seem to credibly hold higher precisions and accuracies under light cutting conditions. I have to admit the Mits control does on the V1000 seem sparse compared to OSP, but we are all CAD/CAM anyway, The OSP control does seem pretty fully featured/solid.

    At least for me part of the appeal is that you get a LOT thrown in with the V1000, whereas with the Okuma M560V all of the necessary extras can add up a bit unless you are able to take advantage of a really really good deal and timing. Not that I am trying to advertise for Hardinge... But...

    $83 K base price [Direct drive all digital machine ] 3 year warranty, but you get lot of things thrown in as standard (such as MPG and manual wash down gun etc. etc. , so with Hardinge 4th axis, useful chip conveyor and Rennishaw tool and parts probe all for about $118K or With 1000PSI TSC for an additional $13k... Not bad...

    Similar functionality in terms of base price and needed equivalent "Extras", for M560V is of the order of $160K (excluding TSC ) A really good deal and one could slash $25K off that perhaps but you still have to pay for the little extras. The one thing I would say in the M560V's "defense" would be that I would believe that the so called "thermo friendly" control of the machine is more "tricked out" than a V1000; i.e part consistency through the day would be better for dimensional tolerances if the button was pushed for all those extra options to make it so.

    I have seen very good deals on the Makino PS 95 and they really do throw in a lot including 450 PSI TSC... But I don't have any sense of what the "P" control is like, I guess it is very minimal Fanuc type?

    I totally agree about Doosan, unfortunately that "Gig" was taken away from our local dealers... And there won't be any direct Doosan presence for Denver to replace that... That is I have to say would have been very good all round compromise.


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