Hardinge and Hartwig have divorced

According to Hardinge as of September 1st Hartwig is no longer selling Hardinge. They are going to announce a new arrangement soon, but until then contact Hardinge directly for sales or service. That came as a surprise to me because Hartwig had just quoted another 480APC machine to me a couple of weeks ago and I was going to spend some time with their rep going over the new Mits control to see if I can live with it.

Wow... Any idea why?

Hartwig in our area always tried as hard as they could to sell Hardinge, and recently with new product line up/Bridgeports and newer price points for Okuma Genos range (specifically M-560V) Hardinge and Okuma were not interfering with each other so much these days. So as pure speculation I would say that it probably doesn't have anything much to do with any specific failures or conflicts with Hartwig but may have more to do with what Hardinge aims to roll out in the future (perhaps?)... Being more pro-active rather than reactive.

Now I have a perfect excuse to find out about pricing on a Kellenberger's special KEL-VISTA 99 EDITION. :-)

"The Hardinge Grinding Group is launching the KEL-VISTA 99 EDITION. This special model is available at an exceptional price to mark Kellenberger's 99th anniversary. Take advantage now. This edition is only available at special conditions during the anniversary year. Contact us immediately and we‘ll be happy to surprise you with a special offer.

847-888-0148"


Also makes me wonder if Hardinge aims to consolidate the range and diversity of some of their lathes/turning centers. So to maybe streamline things a bit and lower certain price points, hence being more in direct conflict with the Okuma lathes and Genos lathes perhaps? Personally I would like to see Hardinge do really well and go "Gangbusters" in the market place especially within the USA.

I heard that Gossiger and Morris were still in but Hartwig was out. I know that Hartwig has gotten whacked pretty hard by the oil crash, especially in the Houston market, but they have definitely pushed Hardinge. Maybe with Okuma expanding their line with the Genos machines (the only thing that Okuma really lacks now is a line of 30 taper drill tap machines) there was just no reason to really push Hardinge as much as some wanted.

Mickey_D said:

I heard that Gossiger and Morris were still in but Hartwig was out. I know that Hartwig has gotten whacked pretty hard by the oil crash, especially in the Houston market, but they have definitely pushed Hardinge. Maybe with Okuma expanding their line with the Genos machines (the only thing that Okuma really lacks now is a line of 30 taper drill tap machines) there was just no reason to really push Hardinge as much as some wanted.

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I see what you mean as Gosiger and Morris carry both Hardinge and Okuma; but you still have an almost $50K difference between V1000 and M-560v... [The other new smaller Bridgeport machines are 40 taper]. And the Hardinge lathes are a different animal (for the most part) than anything offered by Okuma or Okuma Genos. So maybe it is a Hartwig thing or maybe Hardinge experiment with first splitting with Hartwig and then see how it goes from there? It is always assumed that such a split is driven by the MTB? Do you ever get a situations where the "split" is initiated by the Vendor or is it just a mutually understood "Split"?

I wonder if they are going to experiment with a direct sales and support model for what was previously Hartwig territory.

Mickey_D said:

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My salesman was definitely pushing hardinge when I talked to him, I brought up buying an Okuma, not him. Maybe it is different elsewhere.

Glad I bought an M560 and not the V1000

Interesting that in March that AMT (The Association for Manufacturing Technology) has named Richard L Simons (president/CEO of Hardinge) to "Serve" as Chairman on AMT.

The Hardinge Group Blog | The leader in Machine Tool Technology


I think Hardinge (increasingly) are starting to hit their stride (takes time to re-vector a large battle ship) and I don't think (personally) that they would sever ties with Hartwig unless they actually had something better up their sleeve. I.e. You don't throw Hartwig under the bus for something worse. You only do that if you have something substantially better. (Hartwig are good at what they do/great outfit, but Hartwig's "Mantra" is Hartwig = Okuma)... Maybe Hardinge are looking for representation where Vendor and Service group "X" = Hardinge?) Richard L Simons is proactive/smart guy... Exactly what Hardinge needs but takes quite a bit of time to make real changes in a better direction.

Mickey_D said:

(the only thing that Okuma really lacks now is a line of 30 taper drill tap machines)

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...Not for long.

There is a customer in Asia who buys roughly 15,000 Bt30 machines a year. Fanuc got the first taste starting in 2006. Brother caught up and also took a huge chunk of those sales. DMG Mori made the MillTap700 for them. Even a handful of Chirons. Now Okuma is going to step up.

I hope Okuma brings one out - we have had really good luck with the 4 Okumas here.

cameraman said:

I see what you mean as Gosiger and Morris carry both Hardinge and Okuma; but you still have an almost $50K difference between V1000 and M-560v... [The other new smaller Bridgeport machines are 40 taper]. And the Hardinge lathes are a different animal (for the most part) than anything offered by Okuma or Okuma Genos. So maybe it is a Hartwig thing or maybe Hardinge experiment with first splitting with Hartwig and then see how it goes from there? It is always assumed that such a split is driven by the MTB? Do you ever get a situations where the "split" is initiated by the Vendor or is it just a mutually understood "Split"?

I wonder if they are going to experiment with a direct sales and support model for what was previously Hartwig territory.

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Hardinge didn't sell through dealerships until around the time of The Crash.
It was much nicer back when we could deal directly with the factory and to the folks that designed, built, and even runs the machine that you have questions about in their own shop.
That would NOT be a "test run" scenario for them at all.

However - if that was what they were after, that would nix the Okuma control - or so I would think.


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I am Ox and I approve this h'yah post!

Ox said:

Hardinge didn't sell through dealerships until around the time of The Crash.
It was much nicer back when we could deal directly with the factory and to the folks that designed, built, and even runs the machine that you have questions about in their own shop.
That would NOT be a "test run" scenario for them at all.

However - if that was what they were after, that would nix the Okuma control - or so I would think.


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I am Ox and I approve this h'yah post!

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I definitely hear you about that. Especially what you say " We could deal directly with the factory and to the folks that designed, built, and even runs the machine that you have questions about in their own shop."... That makes a huge difference, even if things can be a bit slow.

I have to admit it can be rather tricky sometimes to score deeper info that is very relevant to an application when the MTB is in (let's say) Japan or Taiwan, there's a whole different USA company set up to front the "Foreign" company and then you have a local dealer. For some things (not all) that's one dot too many to connect with. That's four "dots" from MTB to user/purchaser; three or two dots would be better.

To be honest I'm not 100% sure that Hardinge would cancel agreements with Hartwig over a purely Okuma based conflict of interest. I'm wondering if its more a mathematical decision based on all the total number of machines and total range of machines being sold. So for example Hardinge owns or represents Jones and Shipman, KellenBerger, Tschudin, Usach, Voumard and Techmaster. Whereas Hartwig has Okomoto and all the Okuma based grinding platforms. So just because Hardinge switches from using Hartwig (which is just one organization) to something else, doesn't necessarily create a conflict with the GX line of mills with the Okuma control (I think its just the OSP 1000?)Although the V1000 is heavier more rigid machine all be it Mits based.

I don't have the nerve to phone Hardinge or Hartwig, to find out what is what or what's going on until there is an official announcement of some kind. But basically it may boil down to Hartwig not making much profit for the "Effort" from Hardinge products and vice versa that Hardinge is not doing so well from Hartwig given that Hartwig's "wheel house" and laser like focus is definitely with Okuma. Soooo I don't think there is anything wrong with the idea that Hardinge should seek partners that have the capability to put Hardinge FIRST, especially as Hardinge has a veritable eco-system of grinding firms and new products as well. So maybe Hardinge can take a leaf out of Haas's book or as you (OX) say maybe revert to a more streamlined direct sales model? There is also the possibility that Hardinge may introduce Siemens controls on some of their machines as they do in Europe (and maybe) (very speculative) they need someone to support that. I still think you don't cancel things with a good outfit like Hartwig unless you have a new better plan of some sort? I.e. its a positive (onward and upward type) move rather than a negative "Falling out" move precipitated by conflict or failure.

cameraman said:

So maybe Hardinge can take a leaf out of Haas's book or as you (OX) say maybe revert to a more streamlined direct sales model?

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How is that move to a direct sales model working out for DMG Mori?
From everything I've heard, not very well. Lack of product knowledge with the technical sales types. Huge gaps in knowledge with the field service folks. Problems getting people parts.

... and DMG Mori is one of the best resourced MTBs in the industry. How can Hardinge do anything with a fraction of the resources on-hand?

Long term though, the middlemen in *all* industries are getting squeezed. That means MTB VARs need to focus on the V and the A in that acronym harder than ever, or integrate *so* deeply with the MTB that it is hard to tell the difference! This might not even be enough - I had friends at Ellison and they were *deep* in with DMG Mori; still got punted to the wayside.

gkoenig said:

How is that move to a direct sales model working out for DMG Mori?
From everything I've heard, not very well. Lack of product knowledge with the technical sales types. Huge gaps in knowledge with the field service folks. Problems getting people parts.

... and DMG Mori is one of the best resourced MTBs in the industry. How can Hardinge do anything with a fraction of the resources on-hand?

Long term though, the middlemen in *all* industries are getting squeezed. That means MTB VARs need to focus on the V and the A in that acronym harder than ever, or integrate *so* deeply with the MTB that it is hard to tell the difference! This might not even be enough - I had friends at Ellison and they were *deep* in with DMG Mori; still got punted to the wayside.

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I don't deny that I am putting forward deliberately naïve prose that borders on "Malignant Optimism", but until we hear what happens next and what happened and exactly why, I am not prepared to hang anyone yet LOL. I like Hardinge a lot, and what they are trying to do; they are not perfect and at the same time Hartwig has their way of doing what they need to do for themselves. I really wouldn't compare DMG Mori with Hardinge as DMG Mori has a massive variety and array of complex products that they are struggling to rationalize and pair down. But on the other hand I don't get the impression that Hardinge has a lot resources on hand to support direct sales for the entire USA (obviously)... BUT could Hardinge lay on extra staff to cover Rocky mountain and Midwest territories that were formerly Hartwig territory... Doesn't have to be impossible or a Sh*t show really and the Western region is well supported and in the loop with Elmira.

I really hear you when you say (gkoenig) "That means MTB VARs need to focus on the V and the A in that acronym harder than ever," Personally I think that's what Hardinge need to do is to find partners that can really "Bring it" on the "mill front" /Bridgeport resurrection as they need to have vendors that shift "product" in volume and yet are responsive and effective in support. I hear you about Ellison. More recently various resellers were not exactly "Super happy" about Doosan pulling the plug on various regional outfits either. In this case though I don't feel that Hartwig is a "Victim" in all this or whether they loose much sleep over loosing the Hardinge "Gig"... I don't reckon they were making too much $ out of the arrangement and their focus is on their core business which is more loyal to Okuma especially as that client base and associated products are way more lucrative/profitable. But until I/we know anything for sure I am not framing anyone as "Goodies" or "Baddies" right now.

I dunno about all Hartwig locations, but the guys I worked with also rep Tsugami swiss machines and some other Japanese brands like Okamoto, SNK, and Toshiba.

No experience with Hardinge products from Hartwig, but I have plenty of experience on Okumas. Their service was pretty good. Easy to get parts, usually possible to get some help. Their turn key engineering was decent. They way oversold the "partners in thinc" bullshit. None of the super easy integration through the PC turned out to actually be easy, or indeed, even possible.

cameraman said:

. So maybe Hardinge can take a leaf out of Haas's book or as you (OX) say maybe revert to a more streamlined direct sales model?

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YOU are the one puting that possibility out there. I just said that _ that is how they have done it for many years prior. And that they did a very good job of it.


I wouldn't think that Hardinge has much to offer the oilfield industry. Their biggest through spindle is 3" last I knew.



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I am Ox and I approve this h'yah post!

Ox said:

YOU are the one puting that possibility out there. I just said that _ that is how they have done it for many years prior. And that they did a very good job of it.


I wouldn't think that Hardinge has much to offer the oilfield industry. Their biggest through spindle is 3" last I knew.



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I am Ox and I approve this h'yah post!

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Yeah you're right; sorry about that I smashed two or three sentences in my head into one; wasn't being weird or manipulative.

Exactly: "I wouldn't think that Hardinge has much to offer the oilfield industry. Their biggest through spindle is 3" last I knew. "

In Colorado and parts of rocky mountain region Hartwig would be selling into the Areospace / defense sectors too; the Okuma offerings are a good fit for that.

Couple things;

outside of a certain (250 miles-ish) area around the hardinge plant in NY they always sold through distributors. It really pissed off a lot of "local" customers when Hardinge went to all distributors even in this area. The direct support from the factory was a huge selling point for those of us that could get it. Morris picked it up and it wasn't pretty to start with but the support and knowledge has improved over the years. It certainly hurt Hardinge in the local area to move to the distributor model.

Re: Okuma and pricing, there is lots of room in Okuma pricing for distributor profit and deal making. When Okuma America is motivated they can make shit happen. I don't think Hardinge has nearly as much wiggle room on the V1000 due to it's already impressive price point. When I asked for wigggle...I got no wiggle. I'd wager a healthy bet that distributors make more on Okuma equipment than on similar Hardinge. That's not to say that the M560 for example is over priced, I think even this year it's a lot of machine for the money. Okuma will play with the options list as an excuse to up the price until sales slow down and then they will deal.

Lots of folks would love to see Hardinge offer factory direct sales and support but that isn't going to happen, those folks are gone, moved on to other MTB's for sales or working as service techs for other companies.

Several of the service techs that moved on, moved to the new distributors covering their area, and are their "Hardinge" guys.


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I am Ox and I approve this h'yah post!

Maybe it has something to do with THIS :-)

http://www.hardingeus.com/usr/pdf/1512_XT630_5AX.pdf

Hardinge Inc. - Timeline | Facebook

Just goes to show that you can't ignore facebook anymore LOL.

It has a Siemens control... (cough cough). If you look at the construction that is a pretty serious Mo.

For me at least that will be interesting to see how that stacks up against an Matsuura MX-520 or 850.

I think IMTS 2016 is going to be a "Pivotal" year for many types of application. Probably also explains why M-560V has extra/new column height... (Maybe)...



Did any of you guys see this before (the XT-630 5ax) ?

Bridgeport XT63 5AX - YouTube

(I don't know why Hardinge picks such dark "zombie apocalypse"/tortured dolphin type music for their XT-630 5ax video)?



Bridgeport XT63/5Ax - YouTube This video shows more (Dutch/Netherlandish BMT machines); this has the Heidenhein control instead.


Also they are rolling out the New "Tallent" series lathes.

cameraman said:

Maybe it has something to do with THIS :-)

http://www.hardingeus.com/usr/pdf/1512_XT630_5AX.pdf

Hardinge Inc. - Timeline | Facebook

Just goes to show that you can't ignore facebook anymore LOL.

It has a Siemens control... (cough cough). If you look at the construction that is a pretty serious Mo.

For me at least that will be interesting to see how that stacks up against an Matsuura MX-520 or 850.

I think IMTS 2016 is going to be a "Pivotal" year for many types of application. Probably also explains why M-560V has extra/new column height... (Maybe)...



Did any of you guys see this before (the XT-630 5ax) ?


Also they are rolling out the New "Tallent" series lathes.

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Personally, I think that the severing of ties has a lot to do with more than just the oil field. Hartwig covers most of the midwest, and unfortunately for Hardinge that includes John Deere and Caterpillar territory as well. Between oil/gas, ag and heavy construction equipment being down markets, that leaves not a lot. My personal mantra is to focus on what I do best especially in hard times. Hardinge does "direct" best, and Hartwig does Okuma best. I think the sever is more a symptom of the overall economic outlook in the Midwest.
I do not think there will be a "bad guy" or a "good guy".
I do fear for Hardinge. Elmira is a long way away (from the midwest) and historically getting great support from them required you be within a certain radius of their facility. Plus, when I last worked with them, their staff was aging. Very smart, but lacking in young talent.
I also fear for their overall lack of commitment to a direction. (Fanuc, Seimens, OSP, Mitsubishi and I thought you could get a Heidenhain at one point as well)
This is a small sand box we play in. I'm sure whether the split was amicable or not will most likely never be divulged. Neither side wants to "talk smack" about the other. One day they may need them.

anonymity said:

Personally, I think that the severing of ties has a lot to do with more than just the oil field. Hartwig covers most of the midwest, and unfortunately for Hardinge that includes John Deere and Caterpillar territory as well. Between oil/gas, ag and heavy construction equipment being down markets, that leaves not a lot. My personal mantra is to focus on what I do best especially in hard times. Hardinge does "direct" best, and Hartwig does Okuma best. I think the sever is more a symptom of the overall economic outlook in the Midwest.
I do not think there will be a "bad guy" or a "good guy".
I do fear for Hardinge. Elmira is a long way away (from the midwest) and historically getting great support from them required you be within a certain radius of their facility. Plus, when I last worked with them, their staff was aging. Very smart, but lacking in young talent.
I also fear for their overall lack of commitment to a direction. (Fanuc, Seimens, OSP, Mitsubishi and I thought you could get a Heidenhain at one point as well)
This is a small sand box we play in. I'm sure whether the split was amicable or not will most likely never be divulged. Neither side wants to "talk smack" about the other. One day they may need them.

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I mostly agree with that.

This is Hardinge - YouTube

So about 3 minutes and 30 seconds into the video they are trying to paint a picture that they are aware of that problem and are closing the gap by training new and younger skilled staff. (If the PR video is to believed LOL). But at least on a corporate level it shows some "Self awareness" you know what I mean?

I don't know what the price point on the XT 630 5ax is but that would nestle between an Okuma M-560v and MU4000V (pricewise obviously... big gap)) . The problem is with Okuma is the Genos line does not have a full on 5 axis solution and then you have to hop up to MU4000 which is $400-450K + at least. There's a gap there and ironically XT 630 5 ax would fill that gap really nicely I think. That's why I speculate the extended Z or column on the M-560V is to make a 5 axis trunion more practical. I think anyone that deals/sells BOTH Okuma and Hardinge have a complimentary range of machines to offer that don't really tred on each other's toes. But after IMTS 2016 probably things will become a lot more clear.