Hardinge Superslant Troubleshooting - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    Yup that's what I mean a replacement board... (sorry for being imprecise) I.e. 1980-1983 technology/ "Vintage" with a board replacement in the late 1990's / 2000's

    I think Hardplates said there was some boards replaced in 2000 ?


    Clean looking board but one of those diodes looks "Crizzled" (shrugging shoulders.).
    Someone wrote on the power supply "Rebuilt by Fanuc **-02". Its very difficult to read as its faded badly

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    That looks like more 80's lol ;-) (original / in service ).

    Is the insulation on all the wiring sound etc. ? Still (not cracking or anything ?).
    It appears to be in fantastic shape......other than the slight issue of it not working LOL. I'm still trying to track down that CP34 4.1 volt thing on the schematics but what I'm seeing on paper isn't matching what I see in the machine...…
    I am having the Schmatics printed on a plotter and should have them tomorrow evening which should make life a little easier

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hardplates View Post
    It appears to be in fantastic shape......other than the slight issue of it not working LOL. I'm still trying to track down that CP34 4.1 volt thing on the schematics but what I'm seeing on paper isn't matching what I see in the machine...…
    I am having the Schmatics printed on a plotter and should have them tomorrow evening which should make life a little easier
    Nice ---> big plotter …. I still like paper for cray cray big diagrams … Even huge computer screens are not that helpful zooming in and out all the time. Nice to have total overview.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hardplates View Post
    Someone wrote on the power supply "Rebuilt by Fanuc **-02". Its very difficult to read as its faded badly
    Ok so its' the power supply... (rebuilt in 02 ).

    This machine is definitely worth it, it IS very good iron... Not sure about the twin turret thing but pretty damn good for the $ as even new gang tooled Hardinge super precision is gonna be $145K ++++ + And some of their other current T series multi axis are of the order of $200K .

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    Not uncommon at all for Fanuc boards to not have all chip locations populated. Allows them to use one board with a basic capability/configuration and add the additional components for higher spec applications.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vancbiker View Post
    Not uncommon at all for Fanuc boards to not have all chip locations populated. Allows them to use one board with a basic capability/configuration and add the additional components for higher spec applications.
    For sure...

    Just need to get my head around 6 chip array (on an 8086) rather than 8...

    Might need to pull a book off a shelf …

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    *PF and EN are TTL signal pins to enable and power off the power supply

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    first-ram-shot-.jpg

    ^^^
    That's your RAM.


    Seems to correspond with...

    knarly-manual-1.jpg

    ^^^ With THIS... (from my Knarly half baked (free downloaded) manual.

    So skimming through some general digital electronic stuff.

    Seems That missing ICs for 6 and 7 are quite probably the Parity RAM


    Skimming through different memory architectures for what is possible, the smaller chips/ ICs I reckon are the coder and decoding multiplexing chips that address/ manipulate the RAM data. So those 6 chips check out as certainly viable / possible with their multiplexing / addressing (totally legit).

    Does your machine NEED "Parity RAM chips" ? (shrugging shoulders).
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails ram-photo-.jpg  
    Last edited by cameraman; 05-16-2019 at 04:49 PM. Reason: switched photo for 0,1,2,3,4,5 and 6-7 'Ram thing"

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    eric-thinks-rom-.jpg

    ^^^
    These to me look very much like ROM chips... Actually what we used to call in the 70's and early 80's EPROM chips.


    Erasable programable chips. In other words for hard coded instruction programmed byte by byte.


    For some there would be a special system that would burn these chips in byte by byte in sequence and (If memory serves me right.) UV light was used to erase the burnt in "code" of 10010011, 11001010, etc.

    That frosty window on the IC's package was to allow that UV light/ re write and burn... This is a bit wooly / fuzzy as I was ten years old when "Peeps" were going gang bangers with EPROM chips...


    So those would be for hard coded instructions that are NOT to be manipulated i.e. not RAM. (i.e. when you switch the power off the "data instructions" ones and zeros all stay intact... They are not volatile, as in a "ROM" (Read Only Memory) immutable sequence of instructions.

    __________________________________________________ _________________________________________


    The other thing is that "Bubble memory card"*... I'm like holy smokes.

    I don't know how reliable the once super hot future technology of 'Bubble memory" is after 30 years of being abandoned ? Technically very shock resistant yet slow by moderns standards... Even a lot of magneto-optical technology has fallen out of favor since the mid 2000's.

    So I'm kinda thinking like , how lucky can you get with this machine VS a retrofit mainly for safety reasons. ?


    Creaky and glitchy (electronically) or lucky find ? [Some really old machines keep going and going when folks stay on top of them.]. Wondering why this machine was abandoned in the first place.].

    You could make it look 100% retro on the outside with the CRT an all that but have modern competent and safe electronics on the inside, and preserve the ancient electronics in a display case or series of shadow boxes if you want >

    __________________________________________


    * Bubble memory - Wikipedia

    * EPROM - Wikipedia

    ^^^ haven't really read this but seems about right / how I remember things...

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    With those EPROM chip window cover's / stickers reoved I don't know what the long term stability of such a chip would be.

    Although the thing erases with UV light , there may be enough close wavelength light / radiation that ambiently over 35 years may have corrupted the data on these chips ?

    Does thermal radiation / degradation eventually "Get to it" ?

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    The stickers just fell off them yesterday. I just put electrical tape over them when I ready your post. They were also in a sealed dark electrons cabinet.

    Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

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    Incase anyone has a similar problem I replaced a shift register and NAND gate on the board and it now boots up. It now has a spindle drive fault which I traced down to a burnt out transformer on one of the drive boards. It appears as if I need to buy a whole drive or at least a board to get a transformer. Before I invest more time and money into this machine I need to trick it into thinking the spindle drive is there and make sure I can jog all the axis's and make sure all the servo drives are ok. Everything I seem to find on the spindle and servo drives is in german so I don't even know what LEDs to be looking for on the drives...…..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hardplates View Post
    Incase anyone has a similar problem I replaced a shift register and NAND gate on the board and it now boots up. It now has a spindle drive fault which I traced down to a burnt out transformer on one of the drive boards. It appears as if I need to buy a whole drive or at least a board to get a transformer. Before I invest more time and money into this machine I need to trick it into thinking the spindle drive is there and make sure I can jog all the axis's and make sure all the servo drives are ok. Everything I seem to find on the spindle and servo drives is in german so I don't even know what LEDs to be looking for on the drives...…..
    Was wondering how you were getting on … lol.

    Coffee is not working yet at the usual doses (kind of morning.).

    Quote Originally Posted by Hardplates View Post
    <snip> It now has a spindle drive fault which I traced down to a burnt out transformer on one of the drive boards.

    It appears as if I need to buy a whole drive or at least a board to get a transformer.

    <snip>
    If you post some photos of the fried transformer then we might be able to see if the transformer is a more standard component that could be replaced (if that is of any interest to you.).


    Quote Originally Posted by Hardplates View Post
    Before I invest more time and money into this machine I need to trick it into thinking the spindle drive is there and make sure I can jog all the axis's and make sure all the servo drives are ok
    I'll flick through the manual later today, I'm sure Vanbiker knows a hack for that. Maaaaan if VanB gets abducted by aliens a lot of "Peeps" are going to be up sh*t creek for the foreseeable future. [I hope folks contribute to his beer fund and then some.].

    Normally with electronics and power systems there's the issue of what is called a "Dummy load" , i.e. a set of electronic components that have to be wired into a set of power and control circuits so they don't "Blow" without a proper load. I'm sure FANUC has some provisions for that scenario ? No doubt we will find out soon enough ;-)



    Quote Originally Posted by Hardplates View Post
    Everything I seem to find on the spindle and servo drives is in german so I don't even know what LEDs to be looking for on the drives...…..
    My technical "German" is not too bad , I have older German-English English-German machining translation books + other technical dictionaries + the internet. My regular German is a bit hit or miss , kinda depends how much I've had to drink. Seems to get better after 2 beers but gets worse after 5 (but then again so does my English) ???

    So if you post pictures I'm sure we can figure out all the German labelling + what the LEDs refer too.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hardplates View Post
    Incase anyone has a similar problem I replaced a shift register and NAND gate on the board and it now boots up.
    ^^^ If you are able to ;post a picture of that, that could be helpful / cool as well / informative (Thumbs up). [If you have time].

    Coffee...

  21. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    If you post some photos of the fried transformer then we might be able to see if the transformer is a more standard component that could be replaced (if that is of any interest to you.).
    img_20190713_194121824.jpgimg_20190820_105422493.jpg


    I already depotted it in a futile attempt to repair it. I believe this and a blown fuse on the same leg were caused by a voltage imbalance when I first hooked it up to unbalanced 3 phase. I did find a transformer for something like $300 but that's a lot to spend incase this was the result of a cascading failure that initiated from something else.


    When I checked the 3 legs coming out of the transformer on the machine they were about 380v 380v 330v. Its been a while now but I believe there were red LEDs on the servo drives which I assume could be a result of the low leg. I am in the process of repairing a broken phase perfect in the hopes that will solve my servo drive issues. I will take a look later today for the links to the German servo and spindle drive manuals I found.


    Thanks
    Paul

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  23. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hardplates View Post
    img_20190713_194121824.jpgimg_20190820_105422493.jpg


    I already depotted it in a futile attempt to repair it. I believe this and a blown fuse on the same leg were caused by a voltage imbalance when I first hooked it up to unbalanced 3 phase. I did find a transformer for something like $300 but that's a lot to spend incase this was the result of a cascading failure that initiated from something else.


    When I checked the 3 legs coming out of the transformer on the machine they were about 380v 380v 330v. Its been a while now but I believe there were red LEDs on the servo drives which I assume could be a result of the low leg. I am in the process of repairing a broken phase perfect in the hopes that will solve my servo drive issues. I will take a look later today for the links to the German servo and spindle drive manuals I found.


    Thanks
    Paul
    After watching (over lunch) some historic footage of the D day landings made by a press photographer/ gunnery footage; I wondered if I'd have a stab at some of your more Teutonic hardware...

    This is a busy week for me (at least in the eyes of those that need me to be productive (not just myself))…

    So I googled your transformer to unravel some of the designations.

    So you have a C98130-A1002 C76-04-25

    and turned up a C98130-A1002-C76-03-25 380V SIEMENS ID7686

    Found that on a Polish website (country code 48). [Second hand].

    C98130-A1002-C76-03-25 380V SIEMENS ID7686 | RGB Automatyka industrial automation center

    ^^^ Click on the link (interesting group) , They can give you a quote / rough price second hand or "repaired" * . Wondering if there is an equivalent in the USA given that SIEMENS is not so common here.


    It has the
    ________________> 8 ------- 5
    --
    --
    ____________>26 ------28--------30

    pattern / voltage output /arrangement.




    Pin arrangement seems to be the same if you click on the second picture with the transformer flipped onto its back.

    oo_oooo_oooo_oo

    |
    __oo___oo___oo

    This pin arrangement .

    Not 100% if its a 100% compatible component.


    So definitely interesting mishmash between Siemens and Fanuc. Some of the Hardinge Die-hards know more about that Siemens history.

    __________________________________________________ ________


    I'll poke around later on maybe find something closer to home.

    * No affiliation / never worked with these guys in Poland. They might be able to clue you into the difference / designation of the 03 vs. the 04. C76-03-25

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    .......So definitely interesting mishmash between Siemens and Fanuc. Some of the Hardinge Die-hards know more about that Siemens history.......
    Mixed systems suck big time. I don't know how well (or not well) Hardinge may have interfaced the mixed equipment. In the case of the spindle using a third party drive was far more common than using third party servos with the 6 series control.

    The spindle drive interface to the control could be pretty robust or very minimal. If you have good documentation (wiring diagram and ladder diagram) you can suss out what the builder has provided. The 6 series can output analog velocity control or 12 bit binary velocity commands when CSS is used. If CSS is not used then analog or 8 bit speed commands are available.

    The 6 series outputs a spindle control enable and spindle run signal. There are inputs to the 6 series control for spindle stop and spindle speed arrival.

    Most setups I have worked on where a 3rd party spindle is used have a pretty simple interface for reporting spindle drive errors. Usually a single drive output is provided as an input to whatever PLC (internal or external) the builder has employed. The alarm state of the input then triggers logic to put the machine into e-stop or disable one of the ready signals and often drive an output to an indicator on the operator panel showing a spindle fault. No specific alarm message on the CRT. One must look at whatever the spindle drive unit has for error state indicators to further troubleshoot the issue.

    Faking the status of a spindle drive in an error state often only involves determining what the machine builder has provided for error detection and jumpering or opening the signal as needed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vancbiker View Post
    Mixed systems suck big time. I don't know how well (or not well) Hardinge may have interfaced the mixed equipment. In the case of the spindle using a third party drive was far more common than using third party servos with the 6 series control.

    The spindle drive interface to the control could be pretty robust or very minimal. If you have good documentation (wiring diagram and ladder diagram) you can suss out what the builder has provided. The 6 series can output analog velocity control or 12 bit binary velocity commands when CSS is used. If CSS is not used then analog or 8 bit speed commands are available.

    The 6 series outputs a spindle control enable and spindle run signal. There are inputs to the 6 series control for spindle stop and spindle speed arrival.

    Most setups I have worked on where a 3rd party spindle is used have a pretty simple interface for reporting spindle drive errors. Usually a single drive output is provided as an input to whatever PLC (internal or external) the builder has employed. The alarm state of the input then triggers logic to put the machine into e-stop or disable one of the ready signals and often drive an output to an indicator on the operator panel showing a spindle fault. No specific alarm message on the CRT. One must look at whatever the spindle drive unit has for error state indicators to further troubleshoot the issue.

    Faking the status of a spindle drive in an error state often only involves determining what the machine builder has provided for error detection and jumpering or opening the signal as needed.
    That seems very clear and very concrete

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    Looks to me like its simple enough to bypass, unless I am missing something...… Like I said in a previous post I need to repair my phase perfect before I go any further so that I none of my problems are caused by dirty power.

    Phase Perfect dpc-a10

    That is my current project, one project leads to another and to anther and so on. Just need to keep my head down and power through it one step at a time.

    Thank you everyone for all your help.
    Paul
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails img_20190821_085323398.jpg  

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    (the spindle drive has a burnt out transformer on one of the boards so that board is not even in the drive at this time)


    Ok what am I missing here. I am trying to trick the machine into thinking the spindle drive is alive so I can hopefully get rid of the alarms and jog the axis's to make sure the rest of the machine is alive and well before investing more time and money into the spindle drive. The red and green lights are on on the servo drives but I am hoping it has something to do with the spindle drive. There is also a red light on the control station indicating a "drive fault". The controller says has an alarm that the x axis brake is on (I can get the alarm number but I am assuming its cause the drives aren't ready)

    So what am I missing?

    72 gets jumped to 73
    I've tried it with 7 (+24 volts) jumped to 110 and without it jumped.

    There is also 33 and 34 not of the pic that go to 27cr which is a field relay in the e-stop string. I have that relay removed and the e-stop string side jumped out.

    This is probably a great question for Vancbiker but I am open to anyones sugestions.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails spindle-drive.jpg  

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hardplates View Post
    (the spindle drive has a burnt out transformer on one of the boards so that board is not even in the drive at this time)


    Ok what am I missing here. I am trying to trick the machine into thinking the spindle drive is alive so I can hopefully get rid of the alarms and jog the axis's to make sure the rest of the machine is alive and well before investing more time and money into the spindle drive. The red and green lights are on on the servo drives but I am hoping it has something to do with the spindle drive. There is also a red light on the control station indicating a "drive fault". The controller says has an alarm that the x axis brake is on (I can get the alarm number but I am assuming its cause the drives aren't ready)

    So what am I missing?

    72 gets jumped to 73
    I've tried it with 7 (+24 volts) jumped to 110 and without it jumped.

    There is also 33 and 34 not of the pic that go to 27cr which is a field relay in the e-stop string. I have that relay removed and the e-stop string side jumped out.

    This is probably a great question for Vancbiker but I am open to anyones sugestions.
    Is there an online source for the whole circuit diagram,

    It's kinda frustrating not being able to see the whole thing (at least whole thing reasonably sharp?) I know it's big and awkward to post online...

    Always awesome to see Vancbiker do his thing.

    he mentions ~ " Usually a single drive output is provided as an input to whatever PLC (internal or external) the builder has employed."

    And

    --> "Faking the status of a spindle drive in an error state often only involves determining what the machine builder has provided for error detection and jumpering or opening the signal as needed "

    __________________________________________________ ____________________


    Stumbled across this channel for FANUC PLC and ladder logic for FANUC /SIMEMENS and Mits (amazing what is out there these days )
    YouTube

    Might be more relevant to you when you get going (deeper with this machine / venerable iron.).


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