Hardinge T42SP Z torque limiter reset

cmailco · Dec 23, 2010

Our manuals show reset procedures for absolute encoder machines, but nothing for the SP. Was wondering if any of you guys might be able to help with this.

System diagnostics show 'X' 'Z' and 'Tailstock' bits set to '1'. Of course the manuals all say that, "when tripped, these will show '0'".

Z is definitely tripped...

Thanks in advance,
Chuck

Ox · Dec 23, 2010

On a T51 you (I) just push up agginst the chuck with the handwheel and listen for the clutch to "pop in". Back off and re-home.

You may need to cycle the power - and also use the Can/P during boot up possibly as well.

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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

cmailco · Dec 23, 2010

Thanks Ox,

That's the way I understood it too. This is the gist of the information provided by Hardinge:

"Place a block of wood between the spindle and turret, hold the E-stop reset button while turning the jog wheel (.001 inc) compressing the block until an audible 'pop' sound is produced."

Now the problem I have with this is two-fold; 1, the instructions are for machines with absolute encoders and 2, it seems that someone (previous employee) X'd through the pages leaving a note, "Do not use".

By my understanding of the procedure outlined, the 'Z' bit should change from '0' to '1' once the coupling is reengaged BUT, the control shows my Z bit value to be '1' right now. Hence the confusion...

I can certainly try to block it and see what happens but I'm a bit leery considering all the stuff that's not adding up; instructions vs what we're seeing in machine diagnostics.

Thanks again.

Ox · Dec 23, 2010

I never mess with bits, I jist lock it in and re-home.

If you don't have absolutes - Don't mess with that stuff.
If you doo - I can help you too....

You can call me for quicker help.

419-924-5616

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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

cmailco · Dec 24, 2010

Thanks again Ox,

I tried blocking and jogging Z but that only got me a "Z Overload Detection" message.

Guess we'll be looking at this more come Monday. Time to enjoy the holidays.

Happy holidays and thanks for your help so far. Much appreciated!

Regards,
Chuck

spmaster · Dec 24, 2010

On our Quest 65 SP we have to jog the Z axis at .010" per click on the hand wheel gingerly until the nut re-engages the screw. When it re-engages you will know it and it will pick up position as it will again begin reading the glass scales the machine should have. Don't go too quickly with the hand wheel. It just sounds like hell if you do. It may take a few minutes but it will re-engage. I can't explain the mechanics that take place through all this but it is what it takes. After you get the axis reset I would take a test cut to see if you moved the spindle with the block of wood deal. I would not recommend trying this on any Hardinge machine.

Ox · Dec 25, 2010

I tried blocking and jogging Z but that only got me a "Z Overload Detection" message.

It may be locked into position then. ???
Kant hardly imagine it tossing a thrust alarm if it was uncoupled.

Maybe you just need to home it and drive on?

Guess we'll be looking at this more come Monday. Time to enjoy the holidays.

I think I will still be here on Monday...

When it re-engages you will know it and it will pick up position as it will again begin reading the glass scales the machine should have.

Pretty sure his machine doesn't have glass scales. I have a T51SP and it is just encoder.

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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

machtool · Dec 26, 2010

I’d agree with OX, that if its throwing an Overload alarm the coupling has popped back in. Those have an overload coupling, right in the thrust bearing housing at the motor end. That is down in behind the bulkhead sheet metal. You almost need to take the end guard of where the drawbar cylinder sticks out to get at it.

That clutch has a prox switch looking at the torque limit clutch. When the clutch pops it makes the switch. I’ve seen that happen plenty of times where the clutch knocks the switch out of position when it pops. It’s a shrouded switch with a short sensing range, they are normally set really close, hair trigger – ish.

That doesn’t explain why your Diagnostics look O.K, but its that switch that’s driving them. I’d be taking a look at that switch. From memory it isn’t made when the clutch is engaged, it makes the switch when the clutch breaks and the rear part moves backwards towards the servo motor.

Regards Phil.

(On Edit) I used to do Service work for the Australian agent for Hardinge, until they poached one of my apprentices to go and do their work. They had Hardinge service tools for resetting those clutches. Some pin spanners that fitted the clutch face and you clicked then back to engage by hand, with the power off. Dirty job as you were working over that disc brake on the spindle and the cylinder and all the oil and rubber off the spindle drive belts. I’ve never heard of blocking the axis

cmailco · Dec 27, 2010

Talked to the owner today and he told me, "let the Hardinge guy deal with it"... as we're pretty hot on a number of other projects right now. Then again, our local distributor has one tech on staff right now, so I may end up having to get into it as other things are 'in process'.

This particular project is for R&D; just something we try to work in when there's a lot of work in process. Was hoping to get a fair chunk of that knocked out... se la vie.

Thanks for the advice so far guys, I appreciate it and I'll let you know what I find out -- the tech or myself, whoever happens to get on it first!

Regards,
Chuck

cmailco · Dec 30, 2010

Well gentlemen, seems this was an easy fix for our Hardinge guru, though it had him scratching his head over the phone.

As stated, bits for X, Z, Tailstock were all set to "1" though the error "Z torque limiter" remained. The clutch was obviously engaged hence the "Z Overload" detection error while jogging against the wood block.

The problem was found in the "ladder" parameters under 'PCMDIAGNOSTIC'. Seems it wasn't resetting in the control, so the control thought the coupling was still disengaged and wouldn't allow the machine to operate. Believe it was "D" word 0088 but I'll quote the procedure I went through verbatim once I get back to the shop come Monday.

May help others who're searching for a solution to the same problem... or at least get them looking in the right direction.

Cool service guy... wrote it off as a courtesy call. I'll be calling on him again, for sure.

Thanks again for your help gentlemen!

clevtool · Nov 3, 2013

cmailco said:
Well gentlemen, seems this was an easy fix for our Hardinge guru, though it had him scratching his head over the phone.

As stated, bits for X, Z, Tailstock were all set to "1" though the error "Z torque limiter" remained. The clutch was obviously engaged hence the "Z Overload" detection error while jogging against the wood block.

The problem was found in the "ladder" parameters under 'PCMDIAGNOSTIC'. Seems it wasn't resetting in the control, so the control thought the coupling was still disengaged and wouldn't allow the machine to operate. Believe it was "D" word 0088 but I'll quote the procedure I went through verbatim once I get back to the shop come Monday.

May help others who're searching for a solution to the same problem... or at least get them looking in the right direction.

Cool service guy... wrote it off as a courtesy call. I'll be calling on him again, for sure.

Thanks again for your help gentlemen!

I know this was a few years ago, but I am having the exact same problem on the T42SP. This is a new machine for us, and I crashed the cross slide into the tailstock with a X- move. I followed the procedure to realign the tailstock. Using the jogging info above I have found the sweet spot between the two switches that makes the error go away. However once the error goes then and I am able to jog (now trying to zero return) the Z moves as expected, but the X makes a big clunk and errors out again. Dead in the water any help is appreciated.

P.S. Maintenance manual has Chapters 9 and 10 for carriage and cross slide 'not available at time of publish'. Does anyone have a copy?

Thanks,
Mike

Ox · Nov 3, 2013

clevtool said:
I know this was a few years ago, but I am having the exact same problem on the T42SP. This is a new machine for us, and I crashed the cross slide into the tailstock with a X- move. I followed the procedure to realign the tailstock. Using the jogging info above I have found the sweet spot between the two switches that makes the error go away. However once the error goes then and I am able to jog (now trying to zero return) the Z moves as expected, but the X makes a big clunk and errors out again. Dead in the water any help is appreciated.

P.S. Maintenance manual has Chapters 9 and 10 for carriage and cross slide 'not available at time of publish'. Does anyone have a copy?

Thanks,
Mike

I don't understand "I have found the sweet spot between the two switches that makes the error go away."
Not sure what that is... ???

The clunk afterwards could be that you have not gotten the X clutch fully re-seated yet, and maybe you are jogging through it - not giving it time to seat properly? Are you getting it seated with the handwheel? If you are just using the JOG button, you may be blowing through it?

Also - you should prolly reboot with the "P" and "CAN"(cel) button depressed the whole time during booting up. This will purge the control of thinking that it knows where it is at, and will let it HOME to a new position (related to motor location) without alarming out.

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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

clevtool · Nov 3, 2013

RE: Sweet Spot...

I am able to hold e-stop reset, and zero return to get it to jog. I can move the X+ and here a bit of a click, if the axis continues to move another click will be heard. I can do the same in the X- until I overtravel ( note: overtravel seems to bee too far X+ ). There is a point between this + click and - click where the alarm goes away, and the hydraulics keep running when estop reset is released. If done carefully I can use the jog button rather than the handwheel, but I don't really know what to look for when moving the handwheel? At what point does the clutch reset? I have the same problem as cmailco with the Overflow tripping with the 2x4 blocking setup, seems to be an SP thing? I have been running a CHNC-II for 20 years, this seems to be a whole new can of worms...

Ox · Nov 3, 2013

I went back and read what his ailments were, and I didn't see anything about an "overflow". ???

The overload clutch will make a small click when it goes in, and a bigger click (and you will likely see movement) when it trips out - if you go too far.

If you are between these two spots, you should prolly be trying to HOME it. You may need to power down at this point to put the machine into HOMEing mode. You can also HOME the turret to force a machine HOME as well. (There is another way to force a HOME w/o powering down, but I don't recall what it is.)

I would expect you to hear the X brake drag and squeal while you are moving the X while in the alarm mode. It sounds like you are dooing damage, but the sun will more than likely still come up tomorrow... Always has for me. (Usually in the east even!)

I don't know anything about the tailstock issue. I have a sub. (and if it swings anywhere, it is a bad day!)

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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

clevtool · Nov 3, 2013

Sorry, it was 'z overload'. LSI overflow on chnc. To home, don't you have to first jog Z- and X- ? This is when it pops back out.

Ox · Nov 3, 2013

I don't know why it would pop out at that point unless you weren't quite seated to begin with, OR if by chance the O/L clutch has been damaged.

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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

$hooter · Nov 5, 2013

I have a Hardinge Conquest SP, it has been crashed. The message on the CRT is “1006 Z TORQ LMTR/ TLSTK BREAKAWAY".

I have pulled back the Way/ballscrew cover to see what was going on and I noticed the ball screw is not moving using the hand wheel even though the position screen show movement on the Z. I grabbed the ball screw by hand and it moves freely. So at this point appears to me that the servo motor is disconnected from the ball screw.

I can press the OT release and watch the position screen move and nothing else…

Does anyone know how to how to reconnect the servo motor to the ball screw? Or tell me how to explain the problem I am having…/

I would appreciate any help.

Ox · Nov 5, 2013

How far have you turned it?
It should click in within a turn in either direction.

Hardinge is one of very few machine tool builders that incorporate overload clutches between their motors and screws.
You have simply popped one. ... well - usually even with the clutch popped - it normally has enough grip to move the axis and you need to push up agginst something to get it to pop in.

If yours spins free - then you may have a failure in that area.

???

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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

$hooter · Nov 6, 2013

At this point I have moved the position screen 20+ inches in both directions and the ball screw will would not move… I have removed the plate that covers the clutch aligned the “red marks together” and tried to snap it back together by hand (not sure if that is possible) with no success.

I notice however that when I put slight pressure on the back of the tallest flange in the clutch assembly it grabs the ball screw slightly.

I might just try and put pressure on the back of the flange, if you (ox) think that is the why to “pop” it back together…

$hooter

Ox · Nov 6, 2013

I have been in there for thrust bearings before, but it's been so long that it would be exploratory surgery for me now.

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Think Snow Eh!
Ox

Hardinge T42SP Z torque limiter reset

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