Help!!!! Hitachi Seiki HiCell23

randyt88rsb · Mar 25, 2019

I have a Hitachi Seiki Hicell 23. I love this machine it hasn't ran me many jobs but when it runs it runs great!

It has a Mitsubishi FR-SF FREQOL spindle drive.

I have put a new top card in the drive and also had the power supply rebuilt.

When i try to initialize the spindle it does nothing and the load meter pegs out for a few seconds until it alarms out.

The alarm on the drive is Alarm 23 (Excess Error Speed)

Any help would be greatly appreciated i've gotta get this thing going!!!

ifixcnc · Mar 25, 2019

What was the original problem?
Why did you put a new top card in the drive and also had the power supply rebuilt?
Did you match any setting jumpers and pots to the original board settings?

randyt88rsb · Mar 25, 2019

Originally it was getting an overcurrent alarm on the drive and it blew a couple transistors, then it stopped with that alarm after replacing the card the power supply then failed...i did match the jumpers up,and tansfer the parameter cards from original board to new board.

Vancbiker · Mar 25, 2019

randyt88rsb said:
.....When i try to initialize the spindle it does nothing and the load meter pegs out for a few seconds until it alarms out.

The alarm on the drive is Alarm 23 (Excess Error Speed)

Symptom and error point to open output circuit. open transistor module, open current sense resistor, Bad predrive transistor or circuit.

What do you mean by "try to initialize the spindle"?

randyt88rsb · Mar 25, 2019

Ok, i'll admit i'm not electrical system savvy by no means lol.

By try to initialize spindle i mean by either commanding spindle in MDI or by jog command

Vancbiker · Mar 25, 2019

randyt88rsb said:
Ok, i'll admit i'm not electrical system savvy by no means lol.....

So who is working on it? Inside a spindle drive is no place for someone that is not fairly electrically literate.

randyt88rsb · Mar 25, 2019

(Heavy sigh) yes i get that.... I’m not electrically illiterate though either...i also do this on the side from my day job as a programmer and my shop is in its infancy and also in middle of nowhere so i don’t have the cash flow to support tech travel and time at this moment... Just looking for any ideas man not to get raked over no ones forcing u to give ideas.

*

Vancbiker · Mar 25, 2019

randyt88rsb said:
....not to get raked over no ones forcing u to give ideas. &#55358;&#56631;*

Did not think I was raking anyone. Sometimes we get folks posting here that are asking about their trouble but are not the one doing the work. It makes for very awkward 3-cornered passing of information, usually with poor results.

Part of my question is due to the fact that internal to the drive is ~350V DC with a current capability of at least 50A. Accidental contact will be very harmful to you.

We could use a baseline of how much you know. Do you have a basic understanding of how an inverter type spindle drive works?

randyt88rsb · Mar 25, 2019

Understandable vancbiker. Thank you. I understand about accidental contact, and I do not have an extensive knowledge of the inner working of this drive though no.

Vancbiker · Mar 25, 2019

Simple block description of the function of your drive.

Three phase AC power comes into the drive and is rectified to DC. The DC section of the drive is called the DC bus. The DC bus is connected to high power transistor module(s). The output of the transistor module is variable frequency AC and is connected to the spindle motor.

The CNC sends a run command and velocity signal to the drive's main board. The drive calculates the AC frequency and phase rotation required to run the spindle motor at the commanded speed and direction. Pre-driver transistors on the main board trigger in the correct phase rotation and frequency and those signals are transferred to the high power transistor module(s) to conduct power to the motor.

When the motor does not respond to the power application, the main board increases the duty cycle of the pre-driver transistors which increases current flow to the motor. You see this as a rise in the load meter. If the motor still fails to turn the drive shuts down and communicates an alarm signal to the CNC.

The trouble you are having points to no power from the DC bus making it through the high power transistor to the motor. A problem with the high power transistor can cause this. There may be fuses on the output of high power transistor. Any component between the high power transistor and the motor could be bad. The wiring to the motor or even the motor itself. Finally the main board pre-driver circuit could be bad.

Hope this leads you to where to start looking for your solution.

randyt88rsb · Mar 25, 2019

Thank you much for the detailed explanation. If this was your machine, What would you be inclined to check or look at first out of the possible causes you mentioned? I've also sent a request to Mitsubishi for support.

Vancbiker · Mar 25, 2019

I would check the high power transistor module first. Next would be all downstream items all the way to the motor. That's quick and easy.

Then would be the pre-drive circuits, but that pretty much requires an oscilloscope which I do not think you will have.

randyt88rsb · Mar 25, 2019

I do not,most common folk like myself don't you're right lol but I know a great tech we use from my day job I have good relationship with who has one though...maybe I should just bite the bullet and have him come... lost production time is expensive also I guess...

72bwhite · Mar 25, 2019

problem is you got an orphan machine so factor that into your how much you are willing to spend
working on it.
the good news is Mitsubishi may or may not support that particular drive

randyt88rsb · Mar 26, 2019

72bwhite said:
problem is you got an orphan machine so factor that into your how much you are willing to spend
working on it.
the good news is Mitsubishi may or may not support that particular drive

Orphan machines just like orphan children can be succesful too,this really is a great machine when its running that was pretty dang advanced for its time,y axis, c axis, with live tooling and an ATC...i'm a mill guy at heart so that ATC gets me everytime lol

!

Mitsubishi does still support it and have been pretty helpful this morning. I'll update when i get a chance to work on it again.

72bwhite · Mar 26, 2019

no one said they weren't good machines but keep in mind eventually there
could be parts you can't get to repair it.
and not cheap to replace that capability, and you get scrap price if you want to sell it.
I wish they were still supported by a manufacture.
The ones I looked at seem to be nice machines,
actually consider getting one until found out they were orphans.

randyt88rsb · Apr 4, 2019

Just thought i'd update this post. Turns out one of the plugs on the top card was not seating all the way i had to unscrew it off the outer swing door of the drive to get it to fully seat. Lathe has been turning parts ever since! I have had an alarm 33(over voltage alarm). This usually happens when the spindle is decelling from 2000 rpm down to a stop to lock the c axis. I've "remedy'd" this by in the program decelling the spindle first with a lower S command before stopping it and that has seemed to work. Could this be related to me running this machine on a convertor?

Dupa3872 · Apr 4, 2019

I love it when these threads end with chips. Nice job to all who took the time to help out a member and a pat on the back to the OP, another guy busting his ass for his family.

Make Chips Boys !

Ron

randyt88rsb · Apr 4, 2019

Yes, thank you all for all the input.

Vancbiker · Apr 4, 2019

randyt88rsb said:
....Could this be related to me running this machine on a convertor?

Almost certainly. It is not uncommon to need a couple buck transformers to drop the output voltage of your converter. 208V leg to leg would be ideal. Most machines will do OK on 240V leg to leg. It is not uncommon for the output of a rotary converter to be in the high 240s.

Help!!!! Hitachi Seiki HiCell23

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