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sxotty

Plastic
Joined
Nov 14, 2018
I desperately need some help.
I am trying to determine what specific features I would need to accomplish a variety of wishful projects. I am admittedly a newbie and clueless, but I have been cast in the role of trying to decide what sort of capabilities we need prior to hiring a person to actually run the space. I know this is not rational but it is the way things are and kicking against the picks will not help.



Things I would love to have the capability to do (not skill I can work on that, but the machine is a one time thing).

1) I would like to create is a full suspension mountain bike such as Machine - Pole Bicycles Company Oy
vSXbmV1.jpg


It needs about 30x20 inches of space, but different CNC companies list the actual travel and usable work space differently so it is not always clear what I should look for and what requirements would be to make it as I know little about machining. I have done enough cad to be semi competent but only 3d printing and simple woodworking lathe style stuff.

2) I would love to create some custom rear triangles as well for frames I already own. The back of the bike has an integrated shock tube so it seems like it would be more complex to machine.

pM8Y0aB.jpg

That company went bankrupt years ago but I love keeping things working and still use it regularly, but would love to breathe new life into it.

3) a fork would be superb as well, but I think that a mill is probably the wrong tool for the job and might not even be able to do it.

4) control arms for vehicles

5) simpler smaller things gear sets etc...

6) simple engines like something from ages past

​The reason I am talking about things I want to make is those are the things that would motivate me to learn what I need to. Additionally bikes are great things to build for people of most ages IMO. I think it might end doing mostly smaller things but the ability to make custom suspension and other large scale things would drastically open up other possibilities as well.

I just want to know what sort of machine could do this. I was looking at a haas UMC-750 just to give you an idea of the range I am discussing. I don't know if it is large enough or whether I should look at larger 4axis mills. I know there are some things a 4axis can't do like impeller, but a lot just seem to need more patience reorienting piece.

I would really appreciate any help. I have been trying to educate myself on the topic as quickly as possible but expert help would speed this up a lot and help avoid a big mistake that would preclude options later.
 
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1st post, eh? ;)

What kind of material will all these parts be made of? Aluminum? Composites? Other? From the looks of the frame in your link, I'd say a combination of hydroformed and machined parts, most likely?


Quite honestly? Go to Taiwan and have this discussion with an experience frame/bike building factory. Ditto on the components -- there are literally tens or likely hundreds of manufacturers overseas that will build you anything you want, and they have been doing it for years, if not decades.

PM
 
Landslide thanks for looking. Yes it is fully machined in two halves for front triangle and then glued and bolted together.

Precision metal, As I said this is not for a shop. I won't be selling things. It is for a build space and I need to determine capabilities needed and type of machine so we don't run into limitations early and often. It is like your fairy God mother coming down to some random schmoe and saying I will buy you one machine, you don't need to know how to use it, someone else will do that later, but you have to decide now.

I picked items that I would want to learn to make. They are mostly aluminum, but the mill is for many people to use. This materials will vary between titanium, stainless, aluminum and even wood/foam etc if possible. I was just trying to calibrate the complexity to see what we would need (4vs. 5axis) and size. The x y and z travel most likely do not tell story.

Unfortunately it is one of those deals where you are tossed into something and told to figure it out, and oh yeah we need to know yesterday. That means plodding through Google reading across forums just isn't going to cut it. I might get a rough idea, but could easily make a huge mistake that would cost many people future opportunities.
 
Landslide thanks for looking. Yes it is fully machined in two halves for front triangle and then glued and bolted together.

Precision metal, As I said this is not for a shop. I won't be selling things. It is for a build space and I need to determine capabilities needed and type of machine so we don't run into limitations early and often. It is like your fairy God mother coming down to some random schmoe and saying I will buy you one machine, you don't need to know how to use it, someone else will do that later, but you have to decide now.

I picked items that I would want to learn to make. They are mostly aluminum, but the mill is for many people to use. This materials will vary between titanium, stainless, aluminum and even wood/foam etc if possible. I was just trying to calibrate the complexity to see what we would need (4vs. 5axis) and size. The x y and z travel most likely do not tell story.

Unfortunately it is one of those deals where you are tossed into something and told to figure it out, and oh yeah we need to know yesterday. That means plodding through Google reading across forums just isn't going to cut it. I might get a rough idea, but could easily make a huge mistake that would cost many people future opportunities.

Ok first thing that came to mind was HURCO Swivel head B axis mill + embedded 4th axis in table VMX42SRTi

Swivel Head Machines, 5 Axis Milling Machines - SR Series | Hurco


^^^ open house video (universal shown in still) but---> MTDCNC UK video for Hurco open house (High whicome (sp)) ^^^ Unfortunately the two 5 axis universals are not big enough for 30 X 20 but there is a part on there they show that's not a million miles away from your geometries.


FOOTHILLS MACHINERY SALES – MACHINE TOOLS FOR THE METALWORKING INDUSTRY

^^^ These guys in Denver are totally f*cking mad / bonkers for high end bikes … It's like their machine tool vending business is really a disguise for their first love really is... crazy performance bicycles...


They sell HURCOS for along time give them buzz and explain you are in a pinch (even if you are out of area).

Guys you want to talk to are Troy Kattenhorn (sales) or Rick Samuelson Contact – FOOTHILLS MACHINERY SALES

(If you talk to Troy Kattenhorn say an English bloke that looks like James Bond named Eric sent you... (He really hates my guts) BUT I'm sure he'll be able to connect the dots on advanced bicycles and VMX42SRTi (and similar platform).

Presumably you can build large molds for Hydroforming (like what precisionmetal said) 3 axes + smaller 5 axis molds (not super high finishes like a makino, but good enough for what you need (probably) , then regular positional 5 axis smaller parts + like your engine blocks. For long 5 axis parts you can mount a horizontal 4th axis rotary table + tailstock / long trunnion to work with the 5 axis B axis tilting head of the mill. Although they claim you can swing a 1000 mm part off the table as long as you don't hit the sides of the machine.


The VMX42SRTi is not cheap...


But easy to use if many people are using the machine + Hurco control can NOW convert STEP file directly into runnable G-code on the control... Other wise I would recommend SOLIDCAM (running inside of solidworks) + HURCO (seems to be good combination)… They've done well in Germany on that combo and also really good for someone who is newer to CNC but want to do pretty advanced things. (SOLIDCAM documentation is really excellent and breaks down a lot of real world machining into integrated CAD-CAM processes.). In other words you can learn a lot in a relatively short period of time. I.e. keep you between the rails and progress/go forward rather then getting stuck or mired trying to connect the dots yourself on seemingly disparate machining processes.

Virtually any machinist or wannabe machinist should get on with the machine/control as it has good G-code editing capabilities but decent conversational and simulation capabilities.

SolidCAM CAM Software: Simultaneous 5x Milling
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^^^ Comparison with Hurco large universal 5 axis machine with B axis mill with 4th axis embedded table + 3 axis larger table.

Acrona make this part on their Hurco VMX 42 5 axis machine - YouTube

Heathrow Precision are flying after their new Hurco 5 axis is installed - YouTube

You can find other videos yourself... on MTDCNC … [Personally I find the European/ GERMAN HURCO website to be MUCH better organized than the USA one...

https://www.hurco.eu/

https://www.hurco.de/



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@sxotty

If you really have to get sh*t done quickly on this and Hurco "Ecosystem" seems like a good bet/ fit for you, maybe fly to Heathrow Airport (London England)…

Get an UBER or taxi from Heathrow to High Wycombe (where the Hurco event is) Dec 4th and 5th (2018)…


Its about a 40 minute drive...

how to get to high wycombe from heathrow airport - Bing

Might save you a lot of time as you can see "Workholding solutions, tooling solutions, CAM solutions on show" (as Paul says)… *

Also first time to see STEP file converted directly on the Hurco control to make runnable G-code. + actually run / cut part etc. **

Solid Model Import of 3D DXF or STP STEP Files Directly into Hurco Winmax
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@sxotty What's your budget ? ish … ?

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* No affiliation, just a fan. MTDCNC really manage to find the latest stuff coming out.

** Took them B****y long enough to do that ! (What took them so long ? , but very good move (finally)).
 
Conversational control is a dumb idea, especially for 5 axis. I say this having spent more time than I would have liked running Prototraks and Hurcos.

First,if you program at the control, the machine can't be used to cut metal while you're programming. Second, the very best conversational is inferior to even Bobcad,or Fusion 360. It's also slower, and harder than using bottom tier CAD/CAM,that you know how to use ,even for one offs, and maintenance.

You can program any machine you have a postprocessor for using CAD/CAM, with conversational, you're stuck with the brand you know. That's why machine tool salesmen try to push it so hard. You can run the same program on different brands of machine tools using CAD/CAM,just use the right post.

If you are programming anything but ridiculously simple 5 axis parts without collision detection for your fixtures and toolholder, then you have way bigger balls than I do. Toolpath verification, and simulation looks impressive on the Hurco, but in practice, it sucks.

Affordable CAD/CAM made conversational control obsolete.
 
Conversational control is a dumb idea, especially for 5 axis. I say this having spent more time than I would have liked running Prototraks and Hurcos.

First,if you program at the control, the machine can't be used to cut metal while you're programming. Second, the very best conversational is inferior to even Bobcad,or Fusion 360. It's also slower, and harder than using bottom tier CAD/CAM,that you know how to use ,even for one offs, and maintenance.

You can program any machine you have a postprocessor for using CAD/CAM, with conversational, you're stuck with the brand you know. That's why machine tool salesmen try to push it so hard. You can run the same program on different brands of machine tools using CAD/CAM,just use the right post.

If you are programming anything but ridiculously simple 5 axis parts without collision detection for your fixtures and toolholder, then you have way bigger balls than I do. Toolpath verification, and simulation looks impressive on the Hurco, but in practice, it sucks.

Affordable CAD/CAM made conversational control obsolete.

I have to be honest I don't really dig the Hurco control (I won't get into exactly why as it's mainly personal reasons... but assumed it was only me being pernickety ) but other "Peeps" seem to like it. For someone coming at CNC pretty cold might give some ability to do something no matter what.


I think the Hurco B axis mill is more affordable than other "Brands" like MAZAK.

But "Ditto" I wouldn't consider OP's parts without CAD/CAM.

Still not sure on die/mold making requirement for hydroformed parts 'cuz I wonder how many of those parts are hollow and welded ? + Carbon fiber type molds etc. (more 3 axis stuff).

@TRussell good call.
 
Thanks for the replies. It gives me somewhere to go. I think that it is possible we could get something like 150k, but that is absolute max and I would need good reasons. People in charge always want to spend as little as possible. We may end up with basically something tiny like a benchtop model that cannot do much. I wanted to see what it would take to do the sort of awesome things a person sees being built. If I have good reasons and plans there is flexibility. There is no chance for me to fly to London or something similar, but thanks for the suggestion.

As I said this is for a build space and it will mainly be used for kids honestly, but will be managed by someone that knows what they are doing supposedly. We already use fusion 360 (which was mentioned as being not so great, but it works) and design things that we can print with resin, but we constantly run into limitations on size and other issues which are obvious in terms of durability. I was hoping to avoid with the mill. I hate when lots of money is spent on something and then it is immediately a roadblock to accomplishing cool things. As I said I picked projects I would want to do personally. That is because that would give me the motivation to learn what I need. Really I guess I need to put together a list that says what can be accomplished at different budget levels or something similar. Like I said though it will be a one time deal and it seems a shame to not get something amazing given the chance. I suppose I could learn carbon layup or something, but that seems like a huge mess in terms of VOCs and all that sort of thing. There is something so much more elegant about a milled piece in my opinion.
 
Thanks for the replies. It gives me somewhere to go. I think that it is possible we could get something like 150k, but that is absolute max and I would need good reasons. People in charge always want to spend as little as possible. We may end up with basically something tiny like a benchtop model that cannot do much. I wanted to see what it would take to do the sort of awesome things a person sees being built. If I have good reasons and plans there is flexibility. There is no chance for me to fly to London or something similar, but thanks for the suggestion.

As I said this is for a build space and it will mainly be used for kids honestly, but will be managed by someone that knows what they are doing supposedly. We already use fusion 360 (which was mentioned as being not so great, but it works) and design things that we can print with resin, but we constantly run into limitations on size and other issues which are obvious in terms of durability. I was hoping to avoid with the mill. I hate when lots of money is spent on something and then it is immediately a roadblock to accomplishing cool things. As I said I picked projects I would want to do personally. That is because that would give me the motivation to learn what I need. Really I guess I need to put together a list that says what can be accomplished at different budget levels or something similar. Like I said though it will be a one time deal and it seems a shame to not get something amazing given the chance. I suppose I could learn carbon layup or something, but that seems like a huge mess in terms of VOCs and all that sort of thing. There is something so much more elegant about a milled piece in my opinion.

$150K HAAS VF2 or VF3 with small cantilevered 5 axis unit...

Just for fun let me price one up lol … Ya-know … online.

Maybe we can do better than that ?
 
Ok I'm baaaaaack.. lol


Base Price
7.5% OFF $58,270.38 $62,995

Build Options

SALE$77,732.63 $85,035

Your Price

$136,003

Payments as low as
$3,123/mo

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OK so what do you get ??? … -----> HAAS VF3 medium package + TR200Y rotary 5 axis with Tool center point control and dynamic work offsets etc. included (as normally billed for in price)… Part of the price is also a $2600 rotary scale on the C axis for improved accuracy (you might not need that).

the VF3 is basically a 40 x 20 mill and the TR200Y allows you to park a 5 axis trunnion/ rotary on the right side of the table so you can do 4th axis long work pieces as well as complex 5 axis work pieces to pretty damn good precision for most folks.

You probably have enough space left on the table with your 30 X 20 requirement without having to pull the trunnion off and on all the time on the table (that can be a PITA).


I believe Mr Saunders of NYC CNC "Fame" has the same machine... So not only do you have HAAS "Tip of the day" you have got NYC CNC videos + his fusion 360 adventures … Then there's the Titans of CNC "Thing"... Tons of resources from HAAS and the larger friendly HAAS "Eco-system"...

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I'll dig up some more details.

inline direct drive spindle 10000 rpm 30 HAAS power
Side mount 30 tool changer.

Through Spindle coolant (300 psi)


4th and 5th axis drive and wiring.


Ohhh I did include a probe (Renishaw) 'cuz of 5 axis options.

Programable coolant nozzle (included)

One chip auger only.

HSS and DWO + TCPC

wifi connection control (etc.).

TR200Y 5 axis trunnion ($33K ) included in your sub $136K price total.


etc. etc.
 
That took all of 17 minutes...

Maybe go to HAAS automation website and start building your own machine... But the TR200Y seems like a good bet for your part geometries as I think you would be surprised what can be done on a live/ dynamic (contouring) 4th axis on a 3 axis mill that can contour also... In terms of complex longer organic shapes.



If you converge on a set of options you seem to like, re-post as HAAS options thread here on Pm forum as the "Peeps" here on PM forum can give really good advice on that (assuming that's one route that you might pursue).


Larger positional 5 axis-ish eeey type set ups can be done for larger parts on 3 axis mill, you just need to learn how to build your own advanced fixture plates and there is some fairly modern work holding that can help with that (fake 5 axis on 3 axis mill type set ups with good precision and repeatability)… Doesn't hurt also to learn things like how to use a sine plate [properly or gauge blocks / jo blocks too. Also you might want to get "jiggy" with air tool type polishers etc.. / or other methods of surface finishing. ]. OR potentially look at spindle options in the 15K rpm range (better contouring with smaller tools). [I wouldn't recommend 20K rpm on 40 taper for Kids + machines (perhaps); expensive "bumps". ].

PM forum also good for advice on compressors _ air dryer and other accessories + tooling packages or vouchers (advice thereof).

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@sxotty, by the sounds of it you might be entitled to a academic discount of some kind.
 
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Camera thanks for your help. I had already gone to HAAS website and poked around trying to find things that sounded nice and ended up looking at VF-5/40TR, and UMC-750 previously, but it was in mostly complete ignorance. That was when I realized I needed some help. Your suggestion is much better from the sound of it. I was more or less randomly adding items that sounded like they might be useful. I basically thought I needed something with 5-axis from the get go so that narrowed my search unnecessarily. And yes I would definitely be surprised what a person could do with a 4th axis, since I don't know much of anything :)

I really appreciate the effort you made. I simply have no idea what is necessary to accomplish different tasks. This is very helpful. Is HSS just high speed machining? If so we could probably drop it for a non-production facility, but maybe it is not a big deal either way.

As far as the rest goes we have nothing now. At the moment grinding is a bench grinder or angle grinder. Turning is nonexistant, but we were probably going to end up with a traditional lathe, nothing computer controlled. There would only be one big ticket item probably and I was hoping for the mill, but maybe that is the wrong tack. CNC routers (like from shop sabre which seems decent enough to me) are way, way cheaper, but seem to also be quite limited. Yes there will probably be an academic discount, but the financial part is someone else's responsibility.
 
Camera thanks for your help. I had already gone to HAAS website and poked around trying to find things that sounded nice and ended up looking at VF-5/40TR, and UMC-750 previously, but it was in mostly complete ignorance. That was when I realized I needed some help. Your suggestion is much better from the sound of it. I was more or less randomly adding items that sounded like they might be useful. I basically thought I needed something with 5-axis from the get go so that narrowed my search unnecessarily. And yes I would definitely be surprised what a person could do with a 4th axis, since I don't know much of anything :)

I really appreciate the effort you made. I simply have no idea what is necessary to accomplish different tasks. This is very helpful. Is HSS just high speed machining? If so we could probably drop it for a non-production facility, but maybe it is not a big deal either way.

As far as the rest goes we have nothing now. At the moment grinding is a bench grinder or angle grinder. Turning is nonexistant, but we were probably going to end up with a traditional lathe, nothing computer controlled. There would only be one big ticket item probably and I was hoping for the mill, but maybe that is the wrong tack. CNC routers (like from shop sabre which seems decent enough to me) are way, way cheaper, but seem to also be quite limited. Yes there will probably be an academic discount, but the financial part is someone else's responsibility.

Sorry I keep dyslexitizing HSS with HSM


If it we me I'd definitely get HSM … That's kind of a must for modern tool paths and good finishes to from CAD CAM (IMO)

That' normally a $2700.00 option* and folks here (on PM forum) have gotten into rather ugly tangles with HAAS about when the "trial" period for HSM can be turned on or off etc.

I "Think" HSM was part of the price I dug up.

High-Speed Machining

Here's the skinny on that … ^^^

Given the more organic forms that you need with speed and decent surface finish I ([personally) wouldn't skip on that. For me to spend a ton of money on a machine and have crappy slow surface finsihses / tool paths would kinda be a "Bummer".


We all want stuff to look good and like the parts we pull off the machine...


In aluminum things should be well, other folks here may have different opinions on HAAS and surface finishes on different materials...


Just to put this into perspective a Fanuc Robodrill 5 axis is around $140K (smaller work space/ envelope) and not so friendly (more commercial).

For $130 to $150 K with what you want to do I think the HAAS VF3 + Y axis oriented 5 axis trunnion (TR200Y) (that can do 4th axis long work pieces) is almost impossible to beat ?


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* You can phone up later to have that option turned on , on the control + you trial period. But if you have a "package" that has that thrown in that may be much less hassle especially given that you guys may have already spent the money that you have maybe best to get it up-front. Also it shouldn't interfere with other HS(strategies)/HSM tool paths from CAM generated techniques such as trochoidal milling such as I-machining from Solicam (and others).


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@sxotty I think putting your "wood" behind a 3 axis 40 x 20 , that can do complex 4th axis stuff + smaller positional 5 axis work pieces + sim 5 axis gives you a hell of lot more capability than a big router... I always farmed out my big commercial router jobs as they were comparatively inexpensive (like in MDF etc) and the guys doing those machine have all the air handling/ frass extraction equipment and are very quick and efficient at what they do. Smaller hobby gantry mill... It's very 2d / 2 1/2D YKWIM ? (That probably won't excite or challenge you perhaps unless that's your thing... maybe check out a Datron, but 3d sculptural parts and antique/ curiosity engines … HAAS mill + 5 axis I think ? ). Better to look ahead for next 15 years than wish later you had 5 axis (maybe).

CNC Routers, CNC Plasmas | CNC Router Machines, CNC Plasma Machines | ShopSabre CNC

^^^ I know shop sabre are a different class of gantry router... HAAS make those too (but much more pricey). [I think they even have a new 5 axis gantry mill (different process and application an much bigger $).].
 

NYCNC ^^^ Mini V8 engine block. I see he actually got a VM3 (more pricey) than VF3 but same Y orientation trunnion. Notice Orange Vice(s) on table + other set-ups and extra space 'Down" the table.
 
this is for a build space and it will mainly be used for kids honestly

I think buying a 5 axis machine for this kind of purpose is nuts... We can argue all month about which 5 axis setup to buy, but I think it does the spirit of the discussion a real disservice. Running a 5 axis mill has an extreme learning curve and is not something that the kids are going to be able to learn over the course of classes in a normal school year. Which means that someone else will run the machine for them, which means their opportunities for learning will be limited.

If you get a 3 axis machine it will be something that most of the kids have never seen before, and because it's simpler there's a fairly good chance they'll be able to learn how to program simple parts on it in a reasonable amount of time, and having that hands-on experience will be much more valuable than just watching someone else run 5 axis parts. They will learn something and actually feel like they have accomplished something... *This* is the feeling that gets people excited to learn more and has the most impact.

HAAS sell an educational version of the mini mill. It costs $24k with a 10 station tool changer, several of those in a classroom would be a much more valuable learning platform than a single $150k 5 axis mill that none of the kids are allowed to touch for fear of crashing it...
 
Thanks again camera. That is exactly why I started the thread b/c I would have misunderstandings about the value of specific things.

Aaron yeah I hear you. That is definitely a consideration as well, but as I said in my past experience we have run into limitations extremely quickly and I think you are not giving them enough credit (though perhaps I give too much). The problem is the machines you are suggesting are smallish. We are already building many things that would not fit in them so they do not add anything more than an even cheaper mill like an othermill, pocket cnc or something like that. I started by looking at the mini mill from haas, well specifically the super mini mill 2. Benchtop mills could be added later b/c they are cheap comparatively. My personal opinion is the mini mill is in a sort of no mans land where it is pretty darn expensive, but also quite limited in capability. I would far rather have one big and a bunch of benchtop then a couple medium sized units. That seems far better in terms of capabilities. It is always a balancing act, but it seems like the suggestion from camera is a good one to me. I would assume you could lock out the end of the table with the trunion on it so they could not smash the head into it. Maybe mills don't have that capability, but it seems like something that should be easy to implement in the software if they have not already done so.
 
I think buying a 5 axis machine for this kind of purpose is nuts... We can argue all month about which 5 axis setup to buy, but I think it does the spirit of the discussion a real disservice. Running a 5 axis mill has an extreme learning curve and is not something that the kids are going to be able to learn over the course of classes in a normal school year. Which means that someone else will run the machine for them, which means their opportunities for learning will be limited.

If you get a 3 axis machine it will be something that most of the kids have never seen before, and because it's simpler there's a fairly good chance they'll be able to learn how to program simple parts on it in a reasonable amount of time, and having that hands-on experience will be much more valuable than just watching someone else run 5 axis parts. They will learn something and actually feel like they have accomplished something... *This* is the feeling that gets people excited to learn more and has the most impact.

HAAS sell an educational version of the mini mill. It costs $24k with a 10 station tool changer, several of those in a classroom would be a much more valuable learning platform than a single $150k 5 axis mill that none of the kids are allowed to touch for fear of crashing it...

I certainly respect and see your perspective on those ideas... [Was also thinking if it was worth figuring something out with multiple machines for less ? ].

"Kids" I'm not so familiar with US education per se, but I have noticed older / fogey/ Grandpa types (even) use the word "Kids" to refer to anyone under 30 years old …

Not sure what a "Build Space" is and what type of institution that OP is contributing/administrating to/as ? There could be quite a spectrum of abilities there ?




This ^^^^^ is very "Apt" given the conversation here; Titan says it better than I can (love or hate the guy... He's at meeting TODAY (with educators*) on this very issue... I really believe in challenging young teens and beyond to really get a handle on advanced things (as early as possible).


Almost prompted me to start a thread that says "IS 3 axis nearly obsolete ?" (kinda inspired by a quote in TITAN's video linked above.).

But only so many hours in the universe...

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* California Department of Education ---> Titan on panel for figuring out the curriculum / standards needed (I guess in a fairly forward looking way (as needed)).
 
Thanks again camera. That is exactly why I started the thread b/c I would have misunderstandings about the value of specific things.

Aaron yeah I hear you. That is definitely a consideration as well, but as I said in my past experience we have run into limitations extremely quickly and I think you are not giving them enough credit (though perhaps I give too much). The problem is the machines you are suggesting are smallish. We are already building many things that would not fit in them so they do not add anything more than an even cheaper mill like an othermill, pocket cnc or something like that. I started by looking at the mini mill from haas, well specifically the super mini mill 2. Benchtop mills could be added later b/c they are cheap comparatively. My personal opinion is the mini mill is in a sort of no mans land where it is pretty darn expensive, but also quite limited in capability. I would far rather have one big and a bunch of benchtop then a couple medium sized units. That seems far better in terms of capabilities. It is always a balancing act, but it seems like the suggestion from camera is a good one to me. I would assume you could lock out the end of the table with the trunion on it so they could not smash the head into it. Maybe mills don't have that capability, but it seems like something that should be easy to implement in the software if they have not already done so.

I can really relate to that.


At school I was really bad at the three R's (until I got to university by the skin of my teeth where I could excel).


Being very dyslexic and ADD my teachers thought I was nearly retarded / willfully lazy / careless, whereas anything tech / science/ geeK related or ART in particular I'd knock it out of the ball park... I had IQ tests and it showed for visual and spatial thinking I was completely off the charts (They literally didn't have tests to adequately test me with on that front).


I think that's the case in conventional education that there are no tests for spatial giftedness. A lot of very good machinists on PM forum here you definitely get the impression / chip on shoulder thing of not being "Book smart" but being extremely smart in other areas but conventional education makes these types of individuals feel "Much less" when in fact deep down they know they are smart.

Eventually I got a Ph.D and have done some seminal work in 3d and multispectral imaging sciences and engineering but to be honest virtually any of the tricky CAD/CAM stuff and design and FEA related and machining things that I'm getting into now these past years I could have easily have done as a 15 year old (or younger), but back then those types of systems were rare and hellishly expensive. Today that is not an obstacle.


Having a "Space" where the non-book smart yet visually gifted and spatially gifted "Kids" can excel is really important. AND in some sense plugs in to what the USA needs to be good at to compete on the word stage; so any ability to unlock any latent potential in these "Non book smart" kids has finally come to people's attention and the value they can bring.



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Footnote: It's not necessarily the case that spatially gifted kids/people are always "Unequally gifted" or that being book smart is mutually exclusive to being spatially gifted, but in terms of "Brain" real-estate that IS often the case and conventional education does not provide the means to test how good someone is at design or visual problem solving nor is it (currently) rewarded; same for machining related "Digital craft" and the relationship between the two.
 








 
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