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Help selecting new machine for large part milling - replacement machine

M

msayani2

Plastic
Joined
Feb 9, 2015
Location
United Arab Emirates
I was looking into purchasing a machine for our shop that will work for job work and machining a variety of materials.

I am trying to replace an ageing 1988 3 axis Bridge type CNC mill with a Siemens control. It has a max RPM of 2000 and an X axis rapid of 6000 mm/min. Bed size is 2100 x 800 mm and Z axis stroke is 800 mm.

We mainly machine large parts for the cement industry (made of alloy steel at 22-26 HRc), split pump casings made out of duplex and some large aluminium 6061 molds every 2 months.

I was thinking of replacing the machine with something that is more compact but with the same or higher capacity. (ofcourse much more modern also). Specs wise, we need atleast an 8k or 10k spindle with a tool changer, high pressure through coolant and minimum or 110 Nm of torque along with 40m/min.

One machine that came into my mind was the DMG DMF260 or DMF180. I somewhat meets the requirements and then also has 5 axis capabilities for 5 sided machining of heavy components and I can do horizontal machining for long parts. Anyone have any experiences with it? How is the reliability and accuracy? How easy is it to use? Any issues with tool changer or Preventive maintenance activities? Anything I should be aware of?

Any other machines you guys have experience with that you would recommend?

FYI - only looking at machines with FANUC or SIEMENS Controls.
 
Are you wanting full 5 axis motion or 5 face machining? I've machined many a Duplex castings as well as 16% Nickel turbine casings on Toyota bridge mills. They are an absolute beast of a machine, 6K rpm with over 1100 FT LB of torque, Fanuc 31i control. I ran a MG-640 witch is about the same as what you are replacing, 6 meter by 4 meter by 1 meter travels.

They start at about $2 Million USD but well worth it.

Toyoda | MG640
 
A 4 axis or 5 axis is preferred. I was even looking at the makino MCC2013 / MCC2513 series or V90S 5 axis machine.

Does anyone else have experience with this?

For Toyoda maybe a Stealth VB215 or RB212 would be more appropriate.
 
Just to temper your expectations the DMG DMF 260 is going to be about 650-800k depending on options.
 
Just to temper your expectations the DMG DMF 260 is going to be about 650-800k depending on options.
Click to expand...

He's from UAE so probably not too worried about money. I'm in Dubai and Qatar about once every 6 weeks and it's nothing to see a Kern or two in some guys garage.
 
Well to be honest, machine cost to performance ratio really matters. We supply precision components to major oil and gas companies and other OEMs.

We compete on price , quality/delivery perf and capability. Most of our customers have their own shops and can do the work too but need suppliers for special jobs or keep up with demand.

If we cant compete in price, we dont get the order at all. We compete with US, Europe and India on price.

Also your impression of Dubai is exactly the kind that most people have. Its totally not like that. Ive lived here my whole life of 30 yrs.

I saw a Doosan VCF 850 also for sale and seems to be similar in capability. Any thoughts?
 
@msayani2 - I know zilch about oil/gas or the related industries, but I have used a 5-axis machine for some time, and studied them a great deal.

My first advice to you is that for ANY machine, you get enough drawings of it to make a CAD model (assembly) with constraints on machine motions - and then see if typical parts WITH THE REQUIRED fixturing, will fit in the machine.

The doosans you point to seem so large and capable one might thing "well surely any of our parts will fit in there" - and then you come to find that a rotary C table that's not flush with the base table causes a lot of grief, or getting the head close enough to the table when it's rotated over sideways (B-90° say) is an issue.

These things can be surprizing and drive you nuts.

Secondly, the support you can get *IN DUBAI* *FOR THE CONFIGURATION YOU BUY* matters a lot. Doosan is famously one of (or the) largest buyer of Fanuc controls in the world - but I see some of their 5ax machines have Heidenhain controllers (as does my DMU 60) Which controller do you want? How well is Doosan set up to support that controller on the machine you want?

Most people seem to like Doosans, if they have good experiences with the local support.
 
I think you should start by looking at what companies have a presence in your area / country. The capabilities / rpm / power / precision don't matter if it is broken and you can't get parts or service. DMG, Mazak, Okuma, Toyoda, Doosan, .... whatever all make a better more capable more modern machine than what you are using now so any one would be an upgrade. Find a few reputable Machine tool builders that have committed themselves to your market / country and start a dialogue. Visit shops that use their machines even if it's not the same machine, also don't ask the owner how well supported the product is, ask the machinist running it.
 
Well.. we will be machining mostly steel ; cast iron and Duplex SS castings.

Required rpm is 15,000 and it should have a torque of minimum 300 Nm or higher. requires scales fitted in x, y, z minimu..Very High stability and reliability with capability to hold half a thousand of an inch all day long every day for the next 10 yrs.(positional accuracy). Scales in 4th axis(B axis) is a must as at times we make quite a few spur gear for customers and we may want to venture into power skiving in the future.

This gives an idea of what we are looking at.

I looked at makino due to reliability and matsuura for the same. I dont know what has been the experience of most of you all. Dmg mori seems to be giving lots of reliability issues from what i heard from a few who have used them. Uptime seems to be a problem even though they are seemingly well built and have decent power.

Okuma was another choice as well.

Power reqmt - 40hp or more.

Control system - modern seimens 840D control or fanuc 31i or later. Haindenhain is out of the question as there is no support at all in the middle east.
 
I can't say I've ever heard that someone was disappointed in a Matsuura, Okuma, or Makino. I do have a friend here that quit as an apps engineer for Mori after the DMG/Mori merger. He says that support is a PITA depending on which physical factory the machine came from. Not sure if that has changed in the last year or so.
 
Not sure what support looks like in your area, but I don't think you can have a discussion on 5-sided planer mills without discussing Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, Okuma, and SNK...
 
msayani2 said:
I was looking into purchasing a machine for our shop that will work for job work and machining a variety of materials.

I am trying to replace an ageing 1988 3 axis Bridge type CNC mill with a Siemens control. It has a max RPM of 2000 and an X axis rapid of 6000 mm/min. Bed size is 2100 x 800 mm and Z axis stroke is 800 mm.

We mainly machine large parts for the cement industry (made of alloy steel at 22-26 HRc), split pump casings made out of duplex and some large aluminium 6061 molds every 2 months.

I was thinking of replacing the machine with something that is more compact but with the same or higher capacity. (ofcourse much more modern also). Specs wise, we need atleast an 8k or 10k spindle with a tool changer, high pressure through coolant and minimum or 110 Nm of torque along with 40m/min.

One machine that came into my mind was the DMG DMF260 or DMF180. I somewhat meets the requirements and then also has 5 axis capabilities for 5 sided machining of heavy components and I can do horizontal machining for long parts. Anyone have any experiences with it? How is the reliability and accuracy? How easy is it to use? Any issues with tool changer or Preventive maintenance activities? Anything I should be aware of?

Any other machines you guys have experience with that you would recommend?

FYI - only looking at machines with FANUC or SIEMENS Controls.
Click to expand...

I can offer you another option. If you have or find a machine that needs the ways rebuilt. I would be willing to fly to your plant and help you rebuild the ways, new ball screws, etc. Once the government Virus travel requirements allows people to travel I could come and help repair / rebuild your machines plus teach your people to do it next time on there own. Rich
 
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