High feed mill/tool/holder

Machinistsss · Mar 12, 2020

I am looking for recommendations on a high feed mill. I plan to ramp, plunge, everything with it.
Machine is 30HP Cat50/Bigplus spindle.

Thinking 2" cutter outside diameter.
5-6" assembly OAL

I need to be able to rigidly rough pockets at least 5" deep with no chatter.
What tool do you endorse, and what toolholder to match given the parameters?

Thanks

Mtndew · Mar 12, 2020

Have a look at the Sandvik 419 series.
419-050q22-14m

This is a screw on shell mill style, but you can get the Cat50 holder to achieve the length you need.

Jashley73 · Mar 12, 2020

5" deep with a high-feed mill is nothing. 10-12" deep on a CAT50 is doable without giving up performance.

That said, since you said ramping, it's going to be hard to beat Seco's R218.19-160 cutters. Get it in close-pitch if you can, so that you pick up an extra insert for higher feeds.

vr6 · Mar 12, 2020

what is the realistic budget???

Machinistsss · Mar 12, 2020

vr6 said:
what is the realistic budget???

No budget.

Orange Vise · Mar 12, 2020

I'm partial to Mitsubishi in a lot of cases.

For your particular application, I like Sandvik cutters with the biggest insert available, the coarsest flute count (i.e. 3 flute for a 2"), and a capto interface between the holder and the cutter. Normally a standard shell mill holder works fine even in long reach applications, but here we're talking about a relatively small diameter cutter, and the the capto interface simply makes room for a bigger insert.

Chip recutting and shoulder interference makes it so that insert toughness is going to be a top priority. Big inserts are frequently much better at handling this kind of stuff than smaller, all else equal. I haven't tried their 419, but their older 210 is tough as nails.

Machinistsss · Mar 12, 2020

Jashley73 said:
5" deep with a high-feed mill is nothing. 10-12" deep on a CAT50 is doable without giving up performance.

That said, since you said ramping, it's going to be hard to beat Seco's R218.19-160 cutters. Get it in close-pitch if you can, so that you pick up an extra insert for higher feeds.

Link me a video of you or someone doing this and the exact tool and toolholder please.

Hardplates · Mar 12, 2020

Feed mills seem to be inherently stable because of the direction of cutting force. I run a 5/8" feed mill with 4" stickout at 200 ipm in steel all the time. Granted it is a carbide shank but I would still think 5" is nothing for a 2" feedmill. I have a 2" Dofeed quad sitting at 3" and I run out of HP long before rigidity.

gregormarwick · Mar 12, 2020

Machinistsss said:
Link me a video of you or someone doing this and the exact tool and toolholder please.

Do your own homework. There are countless videos on youtube of exactly this.

I routinely run feedmills at 5xD and higher. 80mm feedmill at 400mm extension is not a big deal on a 50 taper machine. Capto tooling is very nice for this and I used to run exclusively sandvik feed mills. Last few years though I've been very pleased with Tungaloy DoFeed.

vr6 · Mar 12, 2020

https://ssl.ingersoll-imc.com/resources/pdf/NEW-164-7_Gold-Quad-F.pdf

https://ssl.ingersoll-imc.com/resources/pdf/new-199-4-hifeedmidi-npa.pdf

TG1G,TG2G,TG3G,TG4G Face Mill

g-coder05 · Mar 12, 2020

The Ingersoll ISO PLUS and Powerfeed13 are really nice.

The ISO PLUS has 8 edges and .060 DOC while keeping a 1 deg ramp angle. the body design is nice as its pockets extend a good ways from the body so smaller pockets can get into deep without a lot of recutting.
DD6H Hi-Feed Face Mill

YouTube

The Powerfeed13 is all brute force. 6 Edges and probably the best plunge rougher I have ever used. It only has .8 deg ramping but has a good high chip load and DOC to make up for it.
DG6P, DG5P Hi-Feed Face Mill

YouTube

We used these testing the new Haas VF5-50 60 horse in 2",3", and 6" cutting S7 and I was really impressed.

OldPackeesan · Mar 12, 2020

We use Mitsubishi formerly Hitachi 2 and 3 in feed Mills on capto assemblies. Very rigid and very little chatter. 2" cutter with 4 inserts, .118" radius. The ajx series is as close as I can find on their site, the ones we use may be discontinued

vr6 · Mar 13, 2020

g-coder05 said:
The Ingersoll ISO PLUS and Powerfeed13 are really nice.

The ISO PLUS has 8 edges and .060 DOC while keeping a 1 deg ramp angle. the body design is nice as its pockets extend a good ways from the body so smaller pockets can get into deep without a lot of recutting.
DD6H Hi-Feed Face Mill

YouTube

The Powerfeed13 is all brute force. 6 Edges and probably the best plunge rougher I have ever used. It only has .8 deg ramping but has a good high chip load and DOC to make up for it.
DG6P, DG5P Hi-Feed Face Mill

YouTube

We used these testing the new Haas VF5-50 60 horse in 2",3", and 6" cutting S7 and I was really impressed.

all great examples of what ingersoll has to offer. i posted just a couple product series and your helpful post too can help the original OP make a conscious decision

Jashley73 · Mar 13, 2020

YouTube

Start at 12 minutes. Not the exact cutter, and they show it mounted on an anti-vibration toolholder. (Extremely expensive, and not necessary with high-feed mills unless you have a really weak machine, or a very flimsy part, such as a weldment...) Nonetheless, it shows off what a high-feed mill should be capable of. If you have a rigid machine & setup, you should be able to exceed that performance, even at that length without issue.

This is the previously mentioned Seco 218.19 high feed mill. It's an older design, but still a fantastic performer that's tough to beat.

Cutter Body
https://www.mscdirect.com/product/d...&pxno=70383630&refnum=70383630&rItem=44497949

Inserts
https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/65946550?rItem=65946550

Also, for what it's worth, I've never been a fan of square insert high-feed insert tools. This may be blind, unfounded opinion, but I've never found these tools to be anything but abusive. My not so extensive experience leads me to believe that trigon & parallelogram inserts that have rounded cutting edges are much easier on the machines. I'd like to believe that it's the rounded cutting edge in concert with a slight helix on the edge, that eases the insert in & out of the cut.

At any rate, there's lots to choose from. Seco, Iscar, Ingersoll all have lots to choose from. Tungaloy seems to be growing in high feed mills as well.

Machinistsss · Mar 13, 2020

Jashley73 said:
YouTube

Start at 12 minutes. Not the exact cutter, and they show it mounted on an anti-vibration toolholder. (Extremely expensive, and not necessary with high-feed mills unless you have a really weak machine, or a very flimsy part, such as a weldment...) Nonetheless, it shows off what a high-feed mill should be capable of. If you have a rigid machine & setup, you should be able to exceed that performance, even at that length without issue.

This is the previously mentioned Seco 218.19 high feed mill. It's an older design, but still a fantastic performer that's tough to beat.

Cutter Body
https://www.mscdirect.com/product/d...&pxno=70383630&refnum=70383630&rItem=44497949

Inserts
https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/65946550?rItem=65946550

Also, for what it's worth, I've never been a fan of square insert high-feed insert tools. This may be blind, unfounded opinion, but I've never found these tools to be anything but abusive. My not so extensive experience leads me to believe that trigon & parallelogram inserts that have rounded cutting edges are much easier on the machines. I'd like to believe that it's the rounded cutting edge in concert with a slight helix on the edge, that eases the insert in & out of the cut.

At any rate, there's lots to choose from. Seco, Iscar, Ingersoll all have lots to choose from. Tungaloy seems to be growing in high feed mills as well.

It looks like these two holders would work well...750 arbor is what most 2" come as which makes holders harder to find in big plus.
Maritool etc..don't make anything like that.

2Lock TaperPlus NCAT50 3/4 Shell Mill Holder
https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/62102884

Jashley73 · Mar 13, 2020

Machinistsss said:
It looks like these two holders would work well...750 arbor is what most 2" come as which makes holders harder to find in big plus.
Maritool etc..don't make anything like that.

2Lock TaperPlus NCAT50 3/4 Shell Mill Holder
https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/62102884

Completely overkill for a big-plus toolholder with such a short gage line, especially a CAT 50. The ONLY benefit is Z-axis creep. Meaning, as you rough lots of volumes of material, the spindle taper begins to get warm & expand, letting the tool creep in ever so slighty into the toolholder. Dual-contact does stop that.

However, for performance, big plus is 100% not necessary for a high-feed cutter on a 50-taper, with that incredibly short gage-line.

If you're going to get a high-feed mill on a dual-contact holder, get a 6" gage-line so that you can at least go deep with it.

CarbideBob · Mar 13, 2020

Jashley73 said:
YouTube

Start at 12 minutes. .....

A almost half hour video from the makers. At what point did that even seem like a good idea?
My attention span is not that long.
This like watching paint dry or corn grow.
Bob

CarbideBob · Mar 13, 2020

g-coder05 said:
...
YouTube

One should notice the wall which is for shit.
It is a oops in using using high feed and no way around it.
In a pocket second op to clean out and that can work in time used.
I do love high feed cutters, they move lots of material in very short time
Bob

TeachMePlease · Mar 13, 2020

CarbideBob said:
One should notice the wall which is for shit.
It is a oops in using using high feed and no way around it.
In a pocket second op to clean out and that can work in time used.
Bob

You didn't watch till the end. They cleaned up that wall.

Machinistsss · Mar 13, 2020

Jashley73 said:
Completely overkill for a big-plus toolholder with such a short gage line, especially a CAT 50. The ONLY benefit is Z-axis creep. Meaning, as you rough lots of volumes of material, the spindle taper begins to get warm & expand, letting the tool creep in ever so slighty into the toolholder. Dual-contact does stop that.

However, for performance, big plus is 100% not necessary for a high-feed cutter on a 50-taper, with that incredibly short gage-line.

If you're going to get a high-feed mill on a dual-contact holder, get a 6" gage-line so that you can at least go deep with it.

That is a 6" gauge length..they have the figures wrong, they are correct in their PDFs on the nikken site.

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