High speed spindle machines

broke · Sep 3, 2020

I am starting to compile info on some high speed spindle machines. I am currently using 45K spindle speeders but can see a need for a more suitable machine.
12x12x12 envelope preferable. 7x7 needed.
Aluminum, copper and stainless

need list-
40K RPM min
40 tools min
probing options
through tool coolant
good support

Want list-
5 axis
robot loader
small footprint

I have been drooling over the stuff from KERN but wonder how their service would be in PA. Any idea what their machines cost? I don't really want a salesman sniffing around quite yet.

Milland · Sep 3, 2020

Check out Roku-Roku too, might be easier to get that Kerns. It looks like the fastest spindle I see mentioned is 36K, but I bet you can get faster if needed.

Roku Roku Sangyo Ltd. Salling and making precision machine tools

High Speed Vertical Machining Centers :: Millennium Machinery

TeachMePlease · Sep 3, 2020

Sounds like Mikron/GF territory to me.

cameraman · Sep 3, 2020

@Yoke

It would be hard for me to stay away from this one (I'm not a sales person lol).

1. ~ Size of parts and materials "going into" machine ? (With automation / robots / drawer systems sometimes good to know the actual dims of the parts in XYZ rather than just diameter and height.).

2. ~ Are the parts near net shape OR is there reasonably substantial metal removal required ?

_______________

I attended some of the Makino online live demos and Q & A sessions , one of them was on D200Z (I'll check deeper spindle options in a "Mo" ), - BUT what was interesting / was when that spindle is run at 30K RPMS you have finer surface finishes (amazing) but the positional and combined part accuracy is not as accurate as running the spindle at 20K RPMS ? ~ Yet surface finishes not as "Nice" as 30K rpm ? (Sort of a lightbulb moment for me, some more experienced folks here probably know why that difference happens.) @Yoke Are you using the higher RPMs for smaller tools and finer surface finishes etc. and or engraving ? [Always thought that most air spindles have virtually zero runout ? (maybe different from a 'Speeder" ]

ChipSplitter · Sep 3, 2020

Matsuura has a machine with 46,000 RPM and 3500 IPM rapids. CHoice of BT30 or HSK-E40 spindle.

Fast enuf?

LF-160 - Matsuura Machinery USA

No idea on price, but I'm sure the excellent Yamazen guys here (BROTHERFRANK and 2outof3) could help you out.

broke · Sep 3, 2020

cameraman said:
@Yoke

It would be hard for me to stay away from this one (I'm not a sales person lol).

1. ~ Size of parts and materials "going into" machine ? (With automation / robots / drawer systems sometimes good to know the actual dims of the parts in XYZ rather than just diameter and height.).

2. ~ Are the parts near net shape OR is there reasonably substantial metal removal required ?

_______________

I attended some of the Makino online live demos and Q & A sessions , one of them was on D200Z (I'll check deeper spindle options in a "Mo" ), - BUT what was interesting / was when that spindle is run at 30K RPMS you have finer surface finishes (amazing) but the positional and combined part accuracy is not as accurate as running the spindle at 20K RPMS ? ~ Yet surface finishes not as "Nice" as 30K rpm ? (Sort of a lightbulb moment for me, some more experienced folks here probably know why that difference happens.) @Yoke Are you using the higher RPMs for smaller tools and finer surface finishes etc. and or engraving ? [Always thought that most air spindles have virtually zero runout ? (maybe different from a 'Speeder" ]

I can't believe I didn't include size and material. facepalm

The project in question only needs about 7 inch Sqr but I'd like 12X12X12 at a minimum.

Aluminum, Copper, stainless.

I need the RPMs for small tools that are doing a fair amount of material removal then some fine accurate finishing.

Mike1974 · Sep 3, 2020

I don't know if footprint size is a requirement, but this says up to 60k rpm and up to 45 tools.

M8Cube | Machine Large, Complex Parts | DATRON Dynamics

(I'm sure the price is "up" there too

)

M8Cube | Machine Large, Complex Parts | DATRON Dynamics

hanermo · Sep 3, 2020

Please everyone provide some ballpark pricing, like list price, vs work envelope.

It´s really different if the base machine is 80k or 300k.

ChipSplitter · Sep 3, 2020

hanermo said:
Please everyone provide some ballpark pricing, like list price, vs work envelope.

It´s really different if the base machine is 80k or 300k.

Pretty tough to do since Haas is literally the only MTB that posts pricing on their webpage (AFAIK). :mad5:

Han, if you could sweet-talk other builders into following Haas's example.... :bowdown:

mhajicek · Sep 3, 2020

If money is tight a Haas CM-1 with a TRT-70 can give you 50K RPM, 12" x 10" x 12" for 3 axis, 5 axis for very small parts, probing, TSC, but only 36 tools and a tiny little ISO-20 spindle taper. Pretty compact footprint.

fmari --MariTool- · Sep 3, 2020

Don't forget the cost of your own tool holder balancer. Any rpms above 25k on a BT30 tool holder or larger and the holder should be balanced as an assembly. Maybe the only time you dont is when you are changing 1/8 or 3/16 bits on a shrink fit holder, but anything larger and especially a collet chuck or milling chuck and you need to balance or at least check the balance every time.

joeg123456 · Sep 3, 2020

Look at the following with service and applications support located in PA

LF-160 - Matsuura Machinery USA

Jaxian · Sep 3, 2020

Well I have no personal knowledge but watching John Grimsmo on YouTube and he has mentioned his 5 axis Kern was a bit over $500k for about that size envelope. Then I think he said $300k for the pallet pool and about $100k for all the Rego-Fix tooling and Erowa pallets. About a million all in. Of course you don't need to buy all that extra stuff so you could get away with the base $500k. A bargain if you have the work.

mhajicek · Sep 3, 2020

The Haas I mentioned, with trunnion, probe, and options, I think would be around $110k.

ChipSplitter · Sep 3, 2020

mhajicek said:
The Haas I mentioned, with trunnion, probe, and options, I think would be around $110k.

$99K with discounts. Not bad......at all.

mhajicek · Sep 3, 2020

Oops, looks like I might have been wrong about TSC on that, I don't see it listed anywhere in the options.

broke · Sep 3, 2020

Definitely not going to be buying a a Haas for this project. I like this customer and want to keep them...

Mike1974 · Sep 3, 2020

yoke said:
Definitely not going to be buying a a Haas for this project. I like this customer and want to keep them...

C'mon!! We hold tenths all the time with our "generic Haas" machines. :rolleyes5:

But hey, you want to drop 1/4-1/2 mil, knock yourself out... BTW, our products all sell for $1k-2k-8k, so it's not like we are making door brackets with sub percent margins....

cameraman · Sep 3, 2020

yoke said:
Definitely not going to be buying a a Haas for this project. I like this customer and want to keep them...

HERMLE C12 comes to mind 42K rpm spindle (I believe there is a 3 axis static table version of the C-12 )

Frank Mari's point about tool balancer/balancing Hermle even insist on purchasing a tool balancer even for 18K rpm spindle for HSK 63.

Dumb questions here:

Part geometry ? 7" x 7" by 1" or 7" x 7" x 7" cube ? With a preference for 12" x 12" x 12" work volume ?

SIM 5 axis ?

or 3+2 / 4+ 1

Long cycle times or short-ish cycle times i.e. mold work -ish or machine / medical / mechanical type parts or more cosmetic high
tech like watch cases ?

Is / are scales and thermal control major issues ?

Any specific tolerancing or surface finish issues beyond "Tenths" ?

@Yoke you seem flexible or possibly undecided about 3 axis vs. 5 maybe ?

cameraman · Sep 3, 2020

TeachMePlease said:
Sounds like Mikron/GF territory to me.

I think you might be right...

That 7" x 7" format to 12" cube (five axis) is not so typical for a 45K rpm machine / spindle.

High speed spindle machines

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