Self employed venture

Long time ghost reader here. I’ve been at a shop for 15 years now and I’m getting the itch to start out on my own. I’m looking for a decently priced machine around the 20 x 14 or so travel range. I love the idea of a haas dm2 or something along those lines. Is there another brand VMC with the same spindle speed (12k) and rapids? Thanks


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Brother has several machines that are comparable to the HaaDM2, as well as Robodrill.

I would see what machines have the best support in your area and make that a driving decision on what brand you go with.

used Mazak VCN 410 should be affordable at this point in the life cycle

You can look at smaller Brothers, Robodrills, that class.


Machine Tools | Brother

Vertical Machining Center | ROBODRILL VMC | FANUC America

I am self employed and spent a long time considering several different brands and options. I wound up buying a Brother S1000. October will be three years. It hasn't paid for itself yet, but that's more on me not being able to feed it enough work!

In those three years I have had one single problem, the screen would flicker and randomly turn off. I had to shut the mill down and restart. Talked to Yamazen and they had me adjust my taps to adjust the incoming voltage and it hasn't happened since. Otherwise the machine just makes parts as fast as I can program and feed stock.

It took some learning (I am still learning) how to run differently. It has absolutely crushed everything I have thrown at it. I run 99% steel, 4140, 8620, A2, D2, CPM's, I have even done some hard milling. Some tweaking (again, learning) and I can get superb finishes that mean no tumbling, polishing, or grinding before or after heat treat.

Accuracy is very good, I had one problem early on (I think there is a thread here somewhere), I had a die detail that had plus minus .0001 tolerance on hole location between two holes. When I ran the part both holes wound up being +.0002 on location I think it was. I called Yamazen and talked to my local guy, who is fantastic by the way, and he laughed and gave me a hard time when I explained. He reminded me they aren't tool room mills, they are production mills. He had me set up a tenths indicator and move from any location on the table to the hole location and sweep the hole. I did the same with the probe. The holes were +.0002 on location, but the machine came back to the EXACT location every single time. I mean exact. No variance what so ever.

Yamazen was fantastic to deal with. They treated me extremely well, took time to answer my questions and make suggestions. You can find several other threads by me about them.

Cost was only marginally higher than a Haas, and I am 110% satisfied with my decision to go with Brother.

Fal Grunt said:

Cost was only marginally higher than a Haas, and I am 110% satisfied with my decision to go with Brother.

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Unless the machine is going in a shop that is already full of haas's and control fluidity needs to be maintained?
Brother hands down. No contest.

While you are just starting off- keep your burden low. its not as easy to pay for the machine as it is to get the financing.
the thing I dont care for- with starting off with a smaller machining platform is it really limits the kind of work you can take on. So unless you already have a niche market it mind- id be more open to a 40x20 machine.
YCM makes a pretty decent mill for the money.
a late '90s haas (if its not beat to piss) is also a very capable machine

brother and robo machines are definitely nice mills...just giving my two cents

ncgokarter said:

Long time ghost reader here. I’ve been at a shop for 15 years now and I’m getting the itch to start out on my own. I’m looking for a decently priced machine around the 20 x 14 or so travel range. I love the idea of a haas dm2 or something along those lines. Is there another brand VMC with the same spindle speed (12k) and rapids? Thanks


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Click to expand...

One of the things in your favor is that used machines are to be had at very reasonable prices, so if your budget is for a used machine, you can score a winner for not a lot of cash. In your desired size range, used Mazaks, Mori's, etc are plentiful.

As someone who went out on his own, I can tell you that you can never plan too much.
So...don't be too fast quitting your day job.
The machine is just the beginning. You'll need tooling, holders, cutters, collets, drills, measuring, cabinets, benches, air compressor, lighting, hand tools, lubricants, coolant, etc.
Don't forget business cards, a business email and a business NAME. Eventually a web site - in due time.
Go slowly. A little at a time. Even a shoe string operation in your garage is going to cost a lot. It's part of the initiation.

Ebay is handy. Industrial auctions are GREAT. I scored many a deal at them. Used machinery dealers. Even CraigsList.
Don't be shy at asking FOG's and even not-so-FOG's as they may know of someone selling some goodies somewhere.

The journey of a thousand miles, starts with a single step. It did for me..

While you are just starting off- keep your burden low.

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I can agree with that.

Whatever you decide on, just make sure you can get parts and support.. and make sure
the parts and support you can get cost less than the machine. "No problem getting
parts and support for XYZ machine." Then you blow a board, and it costs twice as much
as you paid for the entire machine.

Do a search here for whatever machine you are looking at, and if NOTHING pops up.. Don't buy it.

Its one thing when your employer is paying for parts and repairs. And you're still getting
paid while the machine is broken.. Its a whole other thing when your income STOPS because
the machine is down, and you have to PAY to fix it.

+1 on the Brother(S500). I do 2 day turn on parts for the company I work for. Many of them are my designs. Paid for itself in 2 year's of part time machining. Every time I hit the power button it goes "Cha Ching" . It was a Hard pill to swallow the cost of a new machine, but at the time, I couldn't find a used machine that I was comfortable with. There have been a couple smoking deals people have gotten used brother's. One here not too long ago for ~35K. My timing was just bad for getting a used machine, but zero regrets. I do mostly SS, aluminum, peek and ultem.
The machine is crazy fast to setup and run "one off's." The blum tool probe has also been great.
20x16 is a tad small for job shop type work, but most of those that come my way are flat type 30x30 router type work I don't like anyway, and happy to farm it out.

ncgokarter said:

Long time ghost reader here. I’ve been at a shop for 15 years now and I’m getting the itch to start out on my own. I’m looking for a decently priced machine around the 20 x 14 or so travel range. I love the idea of a haas dm2 or something along those lines. Is there another brand VMC with the same spindle speed (12k) and rapids? Thanks


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Buy a haas vf2. Brand new or decently new as long as you have work lined up. Vf2 is a great starter machine…i regret not buying one earlier. Machine was paid off in 3 months.

Thanks for all the help guys. I work in a 100% Haas shop right now and ideally I want to stay with them to hit the ground running.


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With decent credit and a down payment, Haas will set any machine tool or combo of machines you need on your floor.

If you already know Haas, then to me it’s a no-brainer to buy/lease Haas when starting out....

ncgokarter said:

Long time ghost reader here. I’ve been at a shop for 15 years now and I’m getting the itch to start out on my own. I’m looking for a decently priced machine around the 20 x 14 or so travel range. I love the idea of a haas dm2 or something along those lines. Is there another brand VMC with the same spindle speed (12k) and rapids? Thanks


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If somebody was starting out I'd say get a 40x20 machine, unless all you intended to make were small parts. Because as soon as you get a 20x14 you'll be quoting parts that would work well on a 4020.

triumph406 said:

If somebody was starting out I'd say get a 40x20 machine, unless all you intended to make were small parts. Because as soon as you get a 20x14 you'll be quoting parts that would work well on a 4020.

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From a business standpoint, I wouldn't do this at all (cuz that's what I did and it was wrong.)

Find something no one else does, or very few other people do, and go there. Otherwise you'll just be entering the race to the bottom against guys who have been there a lot longer and already have a big headstart.

And don't ever let the financing get to where a downturn will put you under, unless you are twenty or something. At forty-five or fifty, you don't want to be starting all over.

EmanuelGoldstein said:

From a business standpoint, I wouldn't do this at all (cuz that's what I did and it was wrong.)

Find something no one else does, or very few other people do, and go there. Otherwise you'll just be entering the race to the bottom against guys who have been there a lot longer and already have a big headstart.

And don't ever let the financing get to where a downturn will put you under, unless you are twenty or something. At forty-five or fifty, you don't want to be starting all over.

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This is excellent advice! I am side-stepping myself right the hell out of that proverbial race right now.

Peter Thiel: Competition is for fools

EmanuelGoldstein said:

From a business standpoint, I wouldn't do this at all (cuz that's what I did and it was wrong.)

Find something no one else does, or very few other people do, and go there. Otherwise you'll just be entering the race to the bottom against guys who have been there a lot longer and already have a big headstart.

And don't ever let the financing get to where a downturn will put you under, unless you are twenty or something. At forty-five or fifty, you don't want to be starting all over.

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I started with a small machine and very quickly realised I needed a larger machine. 50% of the parts I make now are too large for a 2016 machine. Plus you can get 4-5 vises on a 4020 and run multiple parts, not so easy on a 2016.

I have never financed a machine, bought used and for cash.

Plus you can get 4-5 vises on a 4020 and run multiple parts, not so easy on a 2016.[/QUOTE]

Do you think this is better than running just two or three with a shorter cycle time? Just curious, I have this internal conflict regularly with our bigger qty runs on our vf5s.

triumph406 said:

I started with a small machine and very quickly realised I needed a larger machine. 50% of the parts I make now are too large for a 2016 machine.

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I wasn't thinking of the size of the machine as much as the idea "I'll get a big one in case larger work comes along." Buying machines based on what might come along, that's what's scary to me.