Horizontal questions

Now that I'm a bit closer to moving, the Mori guy and the Kitamura guy have heard that I'm buying a Daewoo HP5100 and want to quote me a machine.
I have heard some reliability issues with Kitamura. I'm going to go visit a couple shops tomorrow that own them.
Anyone have any comments on them?????

I'd definitely do a little shopping, and let the sales guys beat each other up.

You'd think the Daewoo price would be great, based on the pricing and value of their other machines, but their HMCs end up costing just as much as any of the big Japanese names. I was chatting with a huge dealer awhile back that sells Makino and Daewoo, and he said they hadn't sold a single Daewoo HMC in years, because the price is so close to the Makino a51 and a61 machines.

Yea, my problem with that is that I'd have to buy it from "You Know Who"....
Might call Scott at Methods though...

I don't have either a mori or a kitamura. If I was to buy a new HMC I'd look at Mori first. I have looked at Kitamura's brochures... they used to be all box way, and if you listen to them they never have trouble. My personal experience has been with toyoda and Mazak. I'd never buy another mazak based on the old antique I have... but the 1992 Toyoda's are by far the best iron in my operation.

WILLEO6709 said:

I don't have either a mori or a kitamura. If I was to buy a new HMC I'd look at Mori first. I have looked at Kitamura's brochures... they used to be all box way, and if you listen to them they never have trouble. My personal experience has been with toyoda and Mazak. I'd never buy another mazak based on the old antique I have... but the 1992 Toyoda's are by far the best iron in my operation.

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You'd never buy another Mazak because of your experience with a 20+ year old machine? A lot of things change in two decades.

We looked at Mori, Kitamuraa, and Makino when we bought our last Horizontals. We were down to the Kit (twin ballscrew, box ways at linear speeds) and the Makino even though we have 40+ Moris here (service issues on the Moris). One of our divisions has 2 fairly new Kits and they recommended we do not buy one. They have had nothing but troble with it since it was new. Kit uses a air injected way lube oiler that injects air and oil onto the ways. It is how they get 1866ipm rapids, and supposed to be "trouble free" but they have had all kinds of problems with the oilers and the ways.

We ended up with 1 A51 1 A61 and 2 A71 Makinos. Good machines and good service from the seller.
The only Daewoo/Doosan we have is a Puma 700LM lathe. Good lathe, no major issues in 5+ yrs, and the service has been excellent.

I guess my point in this rambling is:
It is part the machine builder, but mostly it the reseller and the level of service they provide.

Mazak was weak in some models of horizontals back in the 90's. As good as any Japanese horizontal now.

Jim, that's odd you heard of reliability problems with Kitamura. Kitamura, and Nigatta (sic?), are the two premier, high end, horizontal machining center builders in Japan. Kitamura also makes vertical machining centers, but Nigatta only makes horizontals.
Neither company makes lathes, so their claim to be the premier builders of milling machines carries some weight.

Opps! I left out Matsuura and Makino. Two more Japanese companies that build only high end vertical and horizontal milling machines.

Kitamuras are box way brutes. Most have dual ballscrew drives for each axis, to enable greater precision (repeatability to +/-40 millionths) and blazing rapids, maybe 1,600 ipm...

Unheard of rapids for a box way machine. Plus, the Kitamura is the only box way machine with a 5 year warranty on the ways themselves.

Any of these 4 premier Japanese machines will more than get the job done, for decades. Boils down to price and service, I guess.

See...that's why I'm askin.
I'm on the Mastercam list. There's some pretty smart guys over there. Couple of them told me of some reliability issues.
I don't know. I got an email from the local Kitamura rep asking if I'd come to any conclusions about a machine andI emailed him back expressing my concerns about reliability...
He called in about 15 minutes to ask who had said they had reliability issues. I tols him what I had heard and he offered to take me to eny of about 15 local shops to talk with owners. I said OK...and we're going tomorrow morning to see...
I talked to the Toyoda district sales rep, I won't do business with "You know who"
He told me they could work around that...
We'll see.
The Makino guy is comming next Tuesday to talk also.
My point is it'a a lot of money. I'll look a bit more.

If the Toyoda guy guy can work around "you know who", are you going to shoot yourself in the foot if you were to buy one - who would service you in this case...surely not "you know who", but then again, maybe.

I think that would be a gamble I would not take, more likely to on a $50k machine, but not on a horizontal, unless you have found how to dip into the $50k horizontal well. If so, let us in on it.

If you look back over time and around the country, you will lfind pockets of machines and dealers that have really done a good job. I have heard that some places have horrible service on brand "X", but another area of the country has exceptional service, and this changes over time. Do your research, ask around - as the saying goes, "Ask the Man Who Owns One". Well, don't take that too much to heart...I guess the Packard building is still standing in Detroit.

Steve

Makino likes to use Pro3 ( maybe rvised to pro5) instead of fanuc ladder to set up their controls. It limits future options on service. I like fanuc ladder... any number of the cnc merc's can come in and help, the most notable of which is GE Fanuc. Machine basic construction also varies. I don't know how much of your own maintenance/ integration you do, but talk to the guys who do this for you ( when its not dealer supported) and you will find the gems. I have had good success, although by no means cheap, getting service from GE Fanuc wehn called for. I don't know if they deal with the Pro3/5 machines from makino well. The mazak I have is a 1986 with a M2 control.... its a coolant leaking, slow, quirky machine that runs mazatrol ( has EIA but not much memory). I know the newer mazaks are much different, but still I'd have to be impressed by everything to buy one. But I would be that way about any machine over the $200k threshhold.

Steve. I asked the Toyoda guy the question about service. He told me they have some machines sold direct. Service is by Toyoda. Apparently there is a local Toyoda service guy. I do NOT know it that is a Selway employee.
Oh crap....Now I let you guys know who "You know who" is....

http://assetsales.ipkoke.com/050608/index.html

If you got the big bucks, and don't mind a good long-distance haul...this 2007 Makino A81 going up for auction next week.

I have to say it because you know its coming.

Matsuura. Thought about moving to a 630 size? You get a lot more machine from everyone if you move up. I have always thought the 500mm size was a "tweener". Its not as big and powerful as a 630, yet takes up all the floor space.

Just my 2 cents.

S

The mazak I have is a 1986 with a M2 control.... its a coolant leaking, slow, quirky machine that runs mazatrol ( has EIA but not much memory). I know the newer mazaks are much different, but still I'd have to be impressed by everything to buy one. But I would be that way about any machine over the $200k threshhold.

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!!!! '86 with an M2 control.... M2 control isn't even a dinosaur, it's older than dinosaurs. If that's the basepoint to gage up on... then boy, have we got something to show you.

Toyoda has greatly expanded their factory service guys in many regions over the last few years. I know we're giving them a shot. We just bought (3) FH1250SX horizontals with a 14 pallet FMS. We'll see how it goes.

Kits are tough machines and can definately hold their own. Makino is top notch and even though the local representation now sucks, the reliability on them is high so down time has been of little concern. Plus, they're easy to fix anyway and there are many private mechanics who have no problem working on them. The control IMO (which are Pro5 now) has never been a problem for working on. I've had Makino on it, locals on it, and neither GE FANUC or FANUC America techs have had issues working with the Pro control overlay. Both FANUCs can install options and software upgrades, hardware problems, etc. Once in awhile you get into a "Oh, thats FANUC" or "Oh, thats Makino" but very seldom.

Matsuura has nice stuff and Niigata used to be HMC king for awhile. But being that they've been bought and sold a few times plus, nearly going bankrupt a couple times in recent history, their corporate structure, which can affect service and application, might leave little to be desired. SNK has stepped in on this but the coastal regions aren't covered very well.

Hitachi I'd just assume no longer deal with them. If you have one, dump it. I'll be canning my Hi-cells soon (hopefully). Although there is a guy on the east coast somewhere that bought a boat load of Hitachi parts to continue parts and service on them. But once he runs out, might be real tough getting back on line.

Mori is very proud of their equipment, hence the commonly higher price over others. But they for sure make a solid machine. Leadwell... hmmm. For me, I'd take one Mats over two Leadwells anyday.... but then again, I don't know all of your details.

I've learned that pallet changers, chip flow, amount of light inside the machine, make a difference in the long run. Another thing is that the "X" axis ways tend to get a lot of wear in the center of the travel, because this is where the pallet is located and most of the work is machined. Kitamura's 1600ipm on box scares me. Especially since so much machining is done in that center "x" axis area. All that weight in that area.....

I have a mid 90s Leadwell Horizontal that I posted some pictures of a little while back. Not a bad machine. It does have it's down falls. Then again, it's not a high end machine. I tell the operator that it's used and not a Mori Seiki (meaning it's not a high end machine), it's gonna have some quirks. Yet, it holds size nice and runs fine for the most part.

A neighboring shop got a new OKK horizontal and it kicks butt. After inspecting it, I noticed that they have an M00 at the pallet change. They do this because the chips pile up badly and it messes with the pallet changer. For that sort of money it should come with a trained monkey that comes out of the tool changer to blow the chips off for you. My Leadwell doesn't have that sort of issue, then again it takes 17 seconds to change pallets not 2 seconds.

I don't know how bad their issue is with the chips. It might just be that particular part. If it was mine I would wire up an M-code with an air blast so the program doesn't stop.

My Leadwell piles up the chips too fast on the inside. After a few hours the operator has to sweep out the chips. Chunks of steel will jam the "B" axis or the chip augers. The chip auger isn't covered well at the coupling inside the machine. Chips or chunks of material tend to jam it there. Issues like chip flow get annoying in time.

There is a reason why Mori's cost more. The great question is whether it is worth it.

Joe788 said:

You'd never buy another Mazak because of your experience with a 20+ year old machine? A lot of things change in two decades.

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Thats for sure... Going from a VQC 20/50 to a VTC 200G or the old H15 to the Ultra 650 and the HCN 6000... no comparision. We still run the VQC daily on small odd jobs. 24 years old and holds tolerances like the day it was new. The H15 was replaced by the HCN 6000. It was a tough old broad that never gave us much grief.

vmcman...[off topic]I can't believe you put a pic of Kaminski on the first page of your website...but then if CVM put my pic on their site....[/off topic]

Now then, I have never worked with Selway, but I have worked alot with Methods / Denver / Boston. I gotta say that support is Methods best selling point...and I am pretty picky about such things. If I had my way, we would have already married a H+ 405 to our MAM72-63V cell....When you get a Matsuura, you get support & machine for life. We have a 760v with a yasnac mx3 control & I have confidence that if we lost parameters, Methods would have the originals...

I guess what I am getting at is support is the #1 issue whe you are buying a high $$$ machine. Our experience with Mori's (we have several of their lathes & 1 mill) is great. The guy that supports our Mori's is a (guess what???) an ex-methods guy.

If you have a problem with Selway, I am sure that you can look toward Boston for your Matsuura/Toyoda needs/wishes. This is coming from a very picky & satisfied customer....now if only I can talk the $$$ guy into that 405

[edit]High rapid rates don't impress me at all...the more time you are rapiding, the more time you are wasting not making chips. effecient programming makes up for alot of rapid time...think about it..whats the time difference between rapiding 10 inches at 1000 IPM vs. 2000 IPM? One can make a bigger difference keeping the tool in the cut alot of the time[/edit]

There is a reason why Mori's cost more. The great question is whether it is worth it.

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Of course they are. You can also make money with a $30 drill press. But a Mori, Mazak, whatever ... are certainly no exception to it. Lots of variables though.. Money you're willing to spend, true experience with high end, high HP machines, etc. A Mori isn't for everybody. Or rather, I should say that a Mori simply for being a Mori doesn't make you money.... unless you're a used machine dealer.

whats the time difference between rapiding 10 inches at 1000 IPM vs. 2000 IPM?

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If you're only measuring a single 10" rapid move? Not much at all. But come on... You gotta give it some perspective. If I save 20 cents on a loaf of bread that I buy once a year... is that really worth it?... No. But, if I save 20 cents on a loaf of bread I buy 3000 a day, 6 days week, all year long.... Now is it worth it? You do the math.... I mean, its a simple test and you can do this yourself. Run your machine balls out for 2 weeks and measure your output. Now, run your machine for 2 weeks (the same jobs, programs, etc) at 50% rapid. I bet you'll see a difference in output and I don't care how "efficient" ones programming might be.

High rapid rates don't impress me at all...the more time you are rapiding, the more time you are wasting not making chips.

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This comment has no value to me. Who in the hell intentionally writes a program with a bunch of arbitrary rapid moves? Not many I would bet....However,

One can make a bigger difference keeping the tool in the cut alot of the time

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Now you're talking. I'm with you 150% here. This is regardless of your machine rapids. Smart programming is always a bonus even on the slowest of machines.

Tell you what though... cutting feed at 2000IPM is a huge difference in output if you're coming from 1000IPM.... .... If you can even hit it. Most people can't, don't know how or are too scared of the possible mishaps which for them its not worth the "risk". But hell, there are boat loads of machines out there that can't even rapid that fast....

Mitsui Seiki, heard some nice things about them. Probably has a pretty nice price but may not be too far from Kitamura and such. Of course depends who sells them in your area and support if ever required.

http://www.mitsuiseiki.com/products/hu50a.asp

Going to go look at a Kitamura in a couple of hours....
Should be interesting.
Makino guy comes next Tuesday.
The Zeiss CMM guy is comming this afternoon.
Busy week.