How ridgid is the haas tm3 mill - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    I can't really think of any reason to buy an open toolroom mill... and I make a substantial amount of my money doing prototypes and low volume. The only reason I have a TM2P is because for a while I was doing 4th axis product development on fairly long pieces of extrusion and that machine fit the bill. I've never developed a relationship with that machine (slower than a seven year itch), and it sits more than it runs in favor of other machines.

    I think most people would be better served with a 4020 VMC:

    If you are on a limited budget, buy one of the hundreds of Fadals that are on the market. Any tractor mechanic can work on them.

    If you are limited to single phase, buy one of the new phase convertors and let her rip.

    If you are scared of a big fast machine, drink a pint of bourbon before work every day. That'll cure it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by G00 Proto View Post

    I think most people would be better served with a 4020 VMC:

    If you are on a limited budget, buy one of the hundreds of Fadals that are on the market. Any tractor mechanic can work on them.
    HEY!!! I resemble that remark!!

    If you are limited to single phase, buy one of the new phase convertors and let her rip.
    Don't even have to do that with a Fadal, you can just buy a single phase transformer for $900,
    you lose a third or so of your power, but how often do you need to take a 20hp cut??

    If you are scared of a big fast machine, drink a pint of bourbon before work every day. That'll cure it.
    A Fadal is plenty slow enough that it shouldn't scare anybody.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sure View Post
    Thanks Doug you did answer the same question I would have had for the VF3 how ridged it is for nice finishes on stainless. Do you run standard HSS cutters with the stainless?
    Sure,

    I run either Gorilla Mill, or Imco Power feed (bought from ExKenna, on this forum) endmills. They are all solid carbide, AlCrNX coated, radius corner, variable flute, 4 or 5 flute cutters.
    For 303 we run in the 375 SFM range for HSM toolpaths, with a .002 -.0025 IPR. (FYI, the feed is calculated using radial chip thinning)

    Doug.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sure View Post
    Do you run standard HSS cutters with the stainless?
    To be honest, the only HSS tools that get loaded into the tool changer are drills, and the occasional (off size) HSS endmill.

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    doug925 wrote:
    "To be honest, the only HSS tools that get loaded into the tool changer are drills, and the occasional (off size) HSS endmill."

    Spot drills; don't forget those!!
    The guy I share shop space with uses carbide, I use Magafor HSS; spotting mostly 316 SS and 6-4 Titanium .
    I'm still on the original set of five I bought from KBC in 1998, he's been through thousands of dollars worth in 4 years.

    Something about the deep flutes, the zero speed at the center of rotation and the high axial pressure that carbide just does not seem to like.

    Every once in a while I throw my HSS ones on the Darex SP2500 drill sharpener and repoint them so they're good for another year.

    The carbide ones seem to pop the points off with some regularity; pretty much all the broken ones in his tool caddy seem to have failed in this way unless they've been used exclusively as chamfer mills or to spot only 6061 aluminum.

    Cheers

    Marcus
    Implant Mechanix • Design & Innovation > HOME
    Vancouver Wire EDM -- Wire EDM Machining


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    I will say that any manual machine most of the time would be more rigid. Now with CNC it can be just as good because you can easily program things so that it will not overstress the rigidity of the machine. Small bites or big ones depending on feeds speeds and tooling.

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    Quote Originally Posted by implmex View Post
    he's been through thousands of dollars worth in 4 years.
    He's rapiding(apparently that's not a word) out of the spot/hole.. He's tearing the cutting edges
    off... Carbide is really hard, can take a lot of heat, can take a lot of pressure, but it SUCKS!!!! in tension, trying to rip off a hard chip at the bottom of a hole or even a spot will will just fracture those cutting edges
    right off..

    If he just fed out .010 or .020 to CUT the chip off, then rapided(also apparently not a real word)
    out of the hole/spot, he'd probably be on his first set of 5 spotters also...


    And the HSS steel thing on a CNC.. Why??? Its like buying a Ferrari and then going down to Pep Boys and
    buying some 4 for $99 tires..

    I sold almost all of mine on E-bay YEARS ago.. I have maybe 20 HSS endmills left.. Some of them are
    just biggies, and I keep a couple real sharp ones for running plastics, a few are home ground specials..

    False economy.. I may have paid $50 for an endmill, but it moved 600lbs of steel in 2 hours.. You may
    have only paid $20 for the HSS endmill, but it took 10 endmills and a full 4 days to move the same 600 pounds.

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    Interesting Bobw.
    I had not heard that explanation before, but it does make sense.

    So when you program these are you programming them longhand or are you using a G85 or G89 canned boring cycle to get the feed-out move?
    Do you prefer one over the other?

    Cheers

    Marcus
    Implant Mechanix • Design & Innovation > HOME
    Vancouver Wire EDM -- Wire EDM Machining

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    Quote Originally Posted by implmex View Post
    Interesting Bobw.
    I had not heard that explanation before, but it does make sense.

    So when you program these are you programming them longhand or are you using a G85 or G89 canned boring cycle to get the feed-out move?
    Do you prefer one over the other?

    Cheers

    Marcus
    Implant Mechanix • Design & Innovation > HOME
    Vancouver Wire EDM -- Wire EDM Machining
    I just long hand it.. On my "TO DO" list, which is right next to my "Round Tuit" is to actually
    make a macro to do that.. I've also found you can increase your HSS or Cobalt drill life massively
    by feeding out a tiny bit in nasty materials.. There very well may be a code or something I'm missing,
    I know you can DWELL, but I don't want to dwell, I want to feed out.

    A quicky I do use is to Bore in/bore out when spotting, takes a few seconds longer, but sometimes that is
    quicker than long handing it.

    Some materials are worse than others.. 13-8 is my worst offender. Ti, 17-4 sometimes, 304 depending on
    how it shows up that day

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobw View Post
    I just long hand it.. On my "TO DO" list, which is right next to my "Round Tuit" is to actually
    make a macro to do that.. I've also found you can increase your HSS or Cobalt drill life massively
    by feeding out a tiny bit in nasty materials.. There very well may be a code or something I'm missing,
    I know you can DWELL, but I don't want to dwell, I want to feed out.
    Seems like a short (.1 second or so) dwell in a G82 cycle would accomplish the task of cutting off the residual chip before retracting. I do 99.9% aluminum so no need or opportunity to test a dwell.

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    I would do that over anything no Haas come close.... the old Maho ,Deckel will crap on Haas any time of the day ( only weak link is the control) Makino uses Fanuc ... always wanted one of them. Time will come some day will get one of the KE series to play around with,one of the best mills made!


    LOL the time it took me to reply.....
    I am just LOLING aroung here....good job guys!

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    Quote Originally Posted by implmex View Post
    doug925 wrote:
    "[COLOR=#333333]To be honest, the only HSS tools that get loaded into the tool changer are drills, and the occasional (off size) HSS endmill."

    Spot drills; don't forget those!!
    The guy I share shop space with uses carbide, I use Magafor HSS; spotting mostly 316 SS and 6-4 Titanium .
    I'm still on the original set of five I bought from KBC in 1998, he's been through thousands of dollars worth in 4 years.
    I'm with you Marcus, I'm positive that Bob is probably right, but the advantage is splitting hairs IMO. I use HSS Spot, Tap, small Drills, Counter bores and Counter sinks (plus the very occasional odd ball thingy). But my Wire machine is busy, so I can't fuss with Carbide on that.

    The problem with using Carbide Spot Drills (IMO) is that it's the first hole making tool in there usually, when you walk away, and IT fails, everything that follows it is wrecked. Then I'm pissed.

    R

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaszub View Post
    ....Makino uses Fanuc ... always wanted one of them. Time will come some day will get one of the KE series to play around with,one of the best mills made!
    When I was shopping for my home CNC, I had a choice between the 30 taper Mori that I ended up with, and an RMC55. The RMC55 is a really nice mill, but no toolchanger and no full enclosure pushed me to the Mori. Even for a home shop doing low,low quantity stuff you give up too much, IMO, by not having a toolchanger. And the shop gets too messy without an enclosure, especially if you are cutting aluminum.

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    Default Thanks!

    Quote Originally Posted by litlerob1 View Post
    Sure, Okuma MB 560.

    R
    I am going to take a look at that.
    Thanks Much!

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    Quote Originally Posted by litlerob1 View Post
    I'm with you Marcus, I'm positive that Bob is probably right, but the advantage is splitting hairs IMO. I use HSS Spot, Tap, small Drills, Counter bores and Counter sinks (plus the very occasional odd ball thingy). But my Wire machine is busy, so I can't fuss with Carbide on that.

    The problem with using Carbide Spot Drills (IMO) is that it's the first hole making tool in there usually, when you walk away, and IT fails, everything that follows it is wrecked. Then I'm pissed.

    R
    +1.

    The only place I use carbide spots is in aluminium alloys and mild steels. They just don't hold up reliably in other materials.

    And while Bob's explanation makes sense (it's very true for carbide drills), I don't think it's the reason for failure. My spot cycles are defined in post to either feed retract or dwell then retract, or both. The point geometry of a typical spot drill is just not carbide friendly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gregormarwick View Post
    +1.

    The only place I use carbide spots is in aluminium alloys and mild steels. They just don't hold up reliably in other materials.

    And while Bob's explanation makes sense (it's very true for carbide drills), I don't think it's the reason for failure. My spot cycles are defined in post to either feed retract or dwell then retract, or both. The point geometry of a typical spot drill is just not carbide friendly.
    I agree.
    In my opinion, the point geometry on a typical spot drill is just flat out CRAP... You're supposed to
    use them for accuracy, and then they give you a damn CHISEL point..

    I haven't bought a spot drill in probably 8 years.. I have some HSS ones left that are in good shape,
    but I don't have any carbide ones left with a tip on them.. Though I did use a 1/2" carbide spotter the
    other day.. I put it in a 1/2" set screw holder upside down and used it as a stop.

    As an aside. FRANK MARItool, you listening... You only use the very tip of a spot drill, why don't they
    sell them double ended.. And why the heck don't they split the tip??? Seems like a no-brainer to me,
    but for some reason spot drill geometry is stuck in the 50's.

    In my daily machining, I almost NEVER use spot drills (or center drills) anymore, very rarely.. I usually
    come in with a stubby cobalt split point at a light feed to start my holes.. Right now running a job with
    a .406 drill.. Spot about .080 deep at .0015 a rev and then come back and crank it up to .006" or so to
    finish the holes.

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    @Sure

    It can be very difficult to quantify performance with so many variables such as new or used machine, the cutter/holder setup, cut data, and the part holding setup.

    Can you test cut on the machine with your typical setup? Any decent machine dealer should accommodate your test cut and if you are buying used then still try to do a test cut. I can't say I recommend buying any machine, new or used, without seeing it cut. Not to mention doing some accuracy tests on a used machine.

    We have a couple of Haas horizontals and they work fine if we we don't push them too hard. The controls are super easy to use which is always nice for training new people. However the old saying you get what you pay for still rings true and our Haas horizontals are definitely not anywhere close to the same class as our Niigata horizontals.

    I recommend doing a test cut if possible and if it fits your needs then buy one and they are relatively inexpensive to maintain.

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    Quote Originally Posted by implmex View Post

    Spot drills; don't forget those!!
    I had forgotten the HSS spot drills.


    Bob is correct on ripping off the lips of carbide drills. A dwell, or a feed retract of a .005-.01" will cure that ASAP.

    I use a G81, or G82 with a dwell on my carbide drills.
    If indexable, I use feed retract of 0.005 prior to rapiding out of the hole. (A quick cheat, if you forgot your dwell, is turning the rapid over ride to 5% when the drill is doing it's thing.

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