HSK A-63 on a HAAS, Anyone own/driving this spindle (yet) ? - Page 3
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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by BROTHERFRANK View Post
    Why exactly? Unless you are offering a 'very high' rpm spindle (40k rpm plus?).
    I have ran both HSK40 and BT30, I can say I saw zero advantages and many disadvantages with HSK 40 versus even non-Dual Contact BT30 on machines to 27k rpm max.
    Higher drawbar force with the HSK?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BROTHERFRANK View Post
    I have ran the HSK 40A version Brother machines. I was very excited the first time I ran one. I had been running BT30 for about 9 years at that point and had done and seen all kinds of crazy feats with BT30. I had been reading up on HSK and I thought "wow this is going to be great"! It wasn't. Cuts I would frequently take with BT30 (standard, not Dual Contact) I couldn't do with HSK40. Also the selection of tool holders was very poor and the price was very high and then when I saw the five quality name brand HSK 40A holders break in the spindle trashing our clients spindles at various times, that was it. I am talking broken holders either during light cuts or even not cutting! The HSK 40 has a very thin area (around .050") in the ID of the hollow taper where the clamping fingers (another nightmare) engage. I handled all the service in the west for about 10 years for Yamazen. we had about six hsk machines out here and a few hundred bt30 and those 6 HSK machines caused more trouble than the other 300 (now more like 1500) BT30 put together. The cost of a replacement HSK spindle is nearly double a standard BT30. Thanks to royalties that builders must pay to the HSK gods I am told. The tool holder selection is very limited compared to BT30. As I understand it, Brother started with the hsk40 to get 1000 psi coolant thru spindle capability. Once they were able to accomplish that with BT30 thru the pull stud, they dropped hsk like a hot potato. It was a happy day for me. In regards to BT30 pull studs. I don't know of any users out here that change them yearly. Most I know have 10 and 20 year old pull studs still chugging along. Pull stud breakage overwhelmingly is caused by operator error/crashes. You may find the odd one out of 100s of thousands that has a material or mfg process flaw, but if you think of the millions of BT30 holders and pull studs in service around the world, the failure rate is excellent. I am not anti-HSK in general. It seems the 63A and 100A series do well and really help with larger machines running larger tools at higher rpms. I am sure there is a better selection of tool holders for 63A vs 40A due to the number of spindles out there. I believe the BT30 and now Dual Contact BT30 are excellent all around spindle connections for compact machining centers and for cutting tools that are relatively smaller. We run them very successfully at 27k rpm so it covers a pretty broad range.
    I would be remiss (editorially -lol) …



    If I didn't post this ^^^ , Pierson work holding talking to Mark T discussion of HAAS UMC 500 and issues of HSK...

    Seems in line with some of the gripes / experiences possibly exacerbated by smaller HSK 40 that BrotherFrank describes / reports.

    Mark T seems to indicate HSK's rigidity as usefully compensatory for more wackadoodle 5 axis (less rigid work holding for longer tools).

    Funny that in 5 axis mythology and mold work that 5 axis is sold on the merit of using shorter tool lengths lol. (as well ) Shrugging shoulders.

    ===> Video Touches on notion of variable degrees of drawbar force with HSK (possibly inline with OrangeVice's conjecture ) ~Yay.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Orange Vise View Post
    Higher drawbar force with the HSK?
    Please read post #27

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    Just some random thoughts after reading some of the back & fourth on spindle tapers, etc...

    Regarding rigidity of 7/24 Tapers vs. HSK vs. Capto vs. 7/24 dual-contact... I've seen these biased every which way. Big Kaiser of course says that 7/24 dual-contact is more rigid. European toolholder mfr's suggest that HSK is the way to go. Sandvik Coromant of course suggests that Capto is the way to go...

    Personally, I like the IDEA of HSK for the fact that you get to lose the pull-stud. YAY! Pull-studs are the worst IMO...

    I've been saying for years on this board that Brother/Robodrill should make an HSK option so that we could forget about pull studs. I always receive push-back from the Yamazen crowd. Now, Brotherfrank makes a very good point in specific regards to the HSK40, especially the wall-thickness between which seems prone to fracture. I can see how a .050" radial wall would be a recipe for disaster. Especially if they're heat-treating the material between rough & finish machining when making the toolholders. (Surely not, but one has to wonder...) If that's true, then it just means that HSK40 is a turd.

    Then bump up to HSK63. Or better yet - C4 Capto. If you could break a C4 Capto connection in a Brother machine, then you deserve a prize for doing so.

    C4 Capto offers a lot of benefits. Half the taper angle of HSK means you get more compression of the taper before the flange contact. Excellent torque transmission. No pull-stud to break. 40mm O.D. body size, means that mass is going to be similar to a BT30, so accel/decel should be similar. Add to that, a few companies make Capto-shank milling cutters, so you end up with a one-piece cutter with no other connections between spindle & insert. There is already decent proliferation of Capto toolholders available. And now that it's available as ISO 26623, it continues to proliferate even more.




    OK, I question now weather I've actually added anything to the conversation, but I've spoken my peace anyway...


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    What's the point of an HSK-40 spindle that doesn't go 42,000RPM...all of mine do? Even the ISO spec for HSK-40A is rated to 30K. Using a high speed holder to rough at 27K or lower is a recipe for disaster. Those Brother machines should have been HSK-50 at least.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jashley73 View Post
    <snip> Big Kaiser of course says that 7/24 dual-contact is more rigid. European toolholder mfr's suggest that HSK is the way to go. Sandvik Coromant of course suggests that Capto is the way to go...

    Personally, I like the IDEA of HSK for the fact that you get to lose the pull-stud. YAY! Pull-studs are the worst IMO...<snip all good snipped for clarity>



    OK, I question now weather I've actually added anything to the conversation, but I've spoken my peace anyway...

    What was really illuminating last week @amiller (that's his handle ~ Engineering manager at Big Kaiser / Big Daishowa ) chimed in on a "Licensing related thread" and seemed to indicate that HSK was the more thorough and or complete solution over Big K dual contact, and that all those newer interfaces were rolled out within a 4 year window of each other.). He did mention torque / torsion advantages of Mill turn machines and Capto etc.


    Drawing reference to @Gkoenig's postulate ( ) that HSK 63 @ 15K RPM on HAAS is completely pointless. "Neither Fish nor foul" (I think that's right/ paraphrasing.).

    It's possible that the 15K rpm HSK interface may go to HAAS's regular verticals also (as an option).

    Would be nice if HAAS did some rigorous testing / comparison videos; but then again you don't want to make your regular CT 40 spindles seem "Bad".

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    Quote Originally Posted by TKassoc View Post
    What's the point of an HSK-40 spindle that doesn't go 42,000RPM...all of mine do? Even the ISO spec for HSK-40A is rated to 30K. Using a high speed holder to rough at 27K or lower is a recipe for disaster. Those Brother machines should have been HSK-50 at least.
    I've thought the HSK-50 would be neat also...

    D200Z | Makino

    ^^^ Makino use HSK-50 on the D-200Z , the machine is interesting as it is designed to actually remove material (actually machine stuff/ commensurate with it's working volume) rather than just machine features on what they would call "Near net shape" parts like some of their other machines that do use HSK 40.


    N2-5XA | Makino

    Makino N2 -5xa little 5 axis horizontal machining center ^^^ using the HSK 40 interface … But "specifically designed for high-productivity in near-net-shape components, making it ideal for medical part machining of orthopedic implant parts and high-volume die cast component production ".

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    I've thought the HSK-50 would be neat also...
    It is neat... until you find out that the only holders you're going to find in wackadoo HSK50 are $400 a pop Haimers and Rego Fix.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TKassoc View Post
    What's the point of an HSK-40 spindle that doesn't go 42,000RPM...all of mine do? Even the ISO spec for HSK-40A is rated to 30K. Using a high speed holder to rough at 27K or lower is a recipe for disaster. Those Brother machines should have been HSK-50 at least.
    We have a machine with an HSK-40 spindle in "E" flavour also with a 42k rpm max and its runs there almost daily cutting copper electrodes. But the same machine roughs/finishes mold inserts all the time. I don't understand how running a "high-speed holder" at lower rpm is a recipe for disaster?

    Last week I was hardmilling some slides for a mold and because of the reach requirments I was using a 12mm endmill with just over 2" of reach. Should have only been removing ~.020" stock at most and was running around 2500rpm Unfortunately at one point I made a "small" mistake and came in the next morning to find my endmill looking like this:

    broken.jpg

    A little bit scary, but the holder is definitely still intact.

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    Yeah, I wouldn't do that very often. The torque curve on my spindle is barely getting started at 5000RPM. At only 2500 I would not be surprised if you stalled the spindle shattering that endmill. Was that on a Steptec spindle? They have a black box onboard now that records "events" like that now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TKassoc View Post
    Yeah, I wouldn't do that very often. The torque curve on my spindle is barely getting started at 5000RPM. At only 2500 I would not be surprised if you stalled the spindle shattering that endmill. Was that on a Steptec spindle? They have a black box onboard now that records "events" like that now.
    Yeah it's a steptec. For sure it's not something I'm too proud of,but the spindle has been running 17+ hours a day 7 days a week lately so stuff is bound to happen here and there.

    It didn't stall the spindle or anything, luckily the part was mounted on a magnet and slid away from the cutter after the initial bite.

    I'm aware of the "black box" but our spindle is past the warranty period and my logs show only ~3minutes or so of "moderate" vibration (3-5g range) so nothing too crazy, I've had a bunch of chatter in the same range cutting thin-wall aluiminum housings in the past.

    Anyways, mostly just wanted to show that (much like BT30 pullstuds) HSK40 holders may have some weak point or disadvanteges, and they may not even be the best choice for many situations but they're still plenty capable of doing some work in the real world where things don't always go perfect.


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