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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by empwoer View Post
    what if youre at 15k exactly? :p
    Yeah like HAAS UMC 500 tops out at 15K (rpm) for their HSK offering but has a potential "Z" consistency advantage. ('cuz HAAS doesn't license a dual contact 40 taper spindle nose ( I don't know if that's still the case ?)).


    Most spindles I see using HSK are 16K to 22K ++ …+ before going to 30 taper* (or other smaller) at higher rpms.

    Hardinge and Okuma "Do" dual contact (BBT-ish) but If memory serves me right top out around 15K ?

    Wondering what dual contact 40 taper spindles that MTBs let "Go" above 15to 16K rpm ? (shrugging shoulders).

    Gcoder he seems to like the 50 taper HAAS offerings. i.e. if you wanna really hog material out.

    Seems the MTBs are calling the shots on this one.

    __________________________________________________ _____________________________________


    * Although Makino on the F3 and F5 have a 30,000 rpm spindle option that uses HSK, F 63 for a special spindle that has a lot more 'umpf at higher rpms (than is typical). But I expect the quality of the spindle to tolerate that better + awesome tool holder + tool balancing. but not really "Hogging" .

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    .......* Although Makino on the F3 and F5 have a 30,000 rpm spindle option that uses HSK, F 63 for a special spindle that has a lot more 'umpf at higher rpms (than is typical). But I expect the quality of the spindle to tolerate that better + awesome tool holder + tool balancing. but not really "Hogging" .
    I'm not sure about the Makino F series machines, but their MAG series with 32k rpm HSK63 spindles can rough more than 350 cubic inches per minute in aluminum. That's "hogging" in my book.

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  4. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by empwoer View Post
    what if youre at 15k exactly? :p
    Bt30 duhhhh

    Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vancbiker View Post
    I'm not sure about the Makino F series machines, but their MAG series with 32k rpm HSK63 spindles can rough more than 350 cubic inches per minute in aluminum. That's "hogging" in my book.
    That's pretty epic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Orange Vise View Post
    The question that people don't ask often enough is whether the spindle taper is actually the limiting factor.

    I think most of the time, the answer is no. You can only push a spindle of a certain size so far. Switching from dual-contact CAT40 to HSK63 isn't going to suddenly increase the load capacities of the bearings.

    There are many other aspects of HSK that make them appealing, but they're a harder sell.
    I know I may be the exception rather than the rule, but I do a lot of heavy machining with a 55KW ISM spindle with plain 50 taper, and I can tell you without a seconds hesitation that the taper is absolutely the weakest link in that spindle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gregormarwick View Post
    I know I may be the exception rather than the rule, but I do a lot of heavy machining with a 55KW ISM spindle with plain 50 taper, and I can tell you without a seconds hesitation that the taper is absolutely the weakest link in that spindle.
    Similar to what I posted earlier....The taper size does not fully determine how well a spindle is going to perform. Some 50 tapers have ~2000lb of retention force while some others have over 4000lbs.

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    More retention force certainly makes for a stiffer connection no matter what taper.

  10. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    Wondering what dual contact 40 taper spindles that MTBs let "Go" above 15to 16K rpm ? (shrugging shoulders).
    DMG MORI speedmaster spindles can be equipped as 20,000RPM with a dual contact CAT40 or HSK63. It's really the spindle to beat. Even other premium builders appear to either max out around 15k, or sacrifice a ton of power for "high speed" spindles.

    IMHO the NHX4000 (which I do like) is an entry level horizontal platform built around a spindle that can tear it to shreds.

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  12. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by boosted View Post
    DMG MORI speedmaster spindles can be equipped as 20,000RPM with a dual contact CAT40 or HSK63. It's really the spindle to beat. Even other premium builders appear to either max out around 15k, or sacrifice a ton of power for "high speed" spindles.

    IMHO the NHX4000 (which I do like) is an entry level horizontal platform built around a spindle that can tear it to shreds.
    worst machine... EVER. nice when it works correctly, the one i had never worked right

  13. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by empwoer View Post
    worst machine... EVER. nice when it works correctly, the one i had never worked right

    Funny, the NHX4000 is one of my favorite mills I've ever run, right next to the NVXs next to it. Takes a lickin' and keeps on tickin', in my experience.

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    Quote Originally Posted by empwoer View Post
    worst machine... EVER. nice when it works correctly, the one i had never worked right
    Any specifics would be nice to know...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milland View Post
    Any specifics would be nice to know...
    the list would take too long to type.
    every week it broke down and took several days for mori to come fix it. so essentially it was non operational for 6 months until they finally agreed to take it back after lawyers reached a settlement. buggiest piece of shit ive ever seen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by empwoer View Post
    the list would take too long to type.
    every week it broke down and took several days for mori to come fix it. so essentially it was non operational for 6 months until they finally agreed to take it back after lawyers reached a settlement. buggiest piece of shit ive ever seen.
    It's a particular generation though isn't it ? , not that should be an excuse , so from folks I know they really like their NHX's but they are a generations before and after yours I think ?

    Sounds like you also had a super bad "Customer" experience with DMG Mori.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    It's a particular generation though isn't it ? , not that should be an excuse , so from folks I know they really like their NHX's but they are a generations before and after yours I think ?

    Sounds like you also had a super bad "Customer" experience with DMG Mori.
    was a 2015 machine, i believe thats gen 2

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    Quote Originally Posted by empwoer View Post
    was a 2015 machine, i believe thats gen 2
    Eh, the sequels are never as good as the originals...

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    IMO, CNC machine builders all have produced a few lemons. Even the best builders. Where the majority of a particular model are good running, solid machines, there is the odd one that for some reason is problematic.

    I know I have a hard time with Mazak for that reason. The vast majority of Mazak users are very satisfied with the brand. Contrary to that, I had nothing but crap performance from the first and only Mazak I was involved with the purchase of. None of the problems were able to be corrected by Mazak. After suffering through 2+ years with it we sold it. Now, despite this happening ~10 years ago, I'd be unable to provided an unbiased opinion on a Mazak machine tool.

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  21. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by boosted View Post
    DMG MORI speedmaster spindles can be equipped as 20,000RPM with a dual contact CAT40 or HSK63. It's really the spindle to beat. Even other premium builders appear to either max out around 15k, or sacrifice a ton of power for "high speed" spindles.

    IMHO the NHX4000 (which I do like) is an entry level horizontal platform built around a spindle that can tear it to shreds.
    Having gone through the "Matrix" with the options on the NHX4000 it does indeed seem possible for the customer to pick out a 40 taper (dual contact) on a 20Krpm spindle.

    riffing off what Gregormarwick + Orangevice were saying (back and fourth) + vancbiker on the integrated spindles like on B axis mill turn machines a regular 50 taper rather than HSK can cause problems in terms of actual distances away from the spindle bearings. Japanese market is more HSK inclined but American Market is more BT/Cat/BBT 40 and 50 inclined.

    @boosted
    not for the first time that Mori seiki / DMG Mori have supplied almost overpowered spindles that as you say totally have the capability to tear the machine apart (especially by misadventure ~ I see now that DMG Mori offers 5 year warranties that include "operator error" ;-) ). Teachmeplease likes the NVX's and DMG Mori themselves like to nudge people towards getting those specc'd / ordered as 50 taper machines (or equivalent). The new NVX's fixed some of the older problems but are now stratospherically priced one might as well go Makino instead lol.

    I like the deep/ high walled bed design + extra structure of the NHX4000 and the stepped "Bridge" assembly, seems (in principal) that it would hold itself together pretty well and not be 100% reliant on quality and depth of foundation, that's all "On-paper Engineering". DMG literature is funny "Overwhelming accuracy" ~ but seems pretty tight / steady. " I am overwhelmed by the accuracy of this machine " lol. ~ German and Japanese phraseology doesn't always translate directly.

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    With Haas now offering HSK-A63 on their VMC's I expect holder prices to come down soon as more companies (Maritool?) start making them.

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    We're getting into the weeds here, but I think historically DMG MORI pushed 50 taper on the NVX because those machines are such beasts. However once the speedmaster spindles became available sometime around 2015, there has been less push for the 50 taper for MMR situations.

    In response the the NHX4000... I have apprehensions about any machine tools built domestically, and sadly the NHX4000 is no exception. They also catch a lot of heat because they aren't built like "traditional" horizontals intended to provide a ton of rigidity for driving big ass facemills. However, when things line up, the speed and accuracy of the platform is amazing -especially given the price point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mhajicek View Post
    With Haas now offering HSK-A63 on their VMC's I expect holder prices to come down soon as more companies (Maritool?) start making them.
    Let's hope. Honestly though, HSK is still easier to find, and less expensive than CAT40 dual contact.


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