hsk63 for hogging? - Page 3
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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by mhajicek View Post
    With Haas now offering HSK-A63 on their VMC's I expect holder prices to come down soon as more companies (Maritool?) start making them.
    Hold my beer...

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    Quote Originally Posted by boosted View Post
    Let's hope. Honestly though, HSK is still easier to find, and less expensive than CAT40 dual contact.

    I think I have a pretty good selection of CAT40 dual contact holders. Increasing every week... Or at least trying.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fmari --MariTool- View Post
    Hold my beer...
    Any sense of how the new HAAS HSK implementation is working out ? [If you are allowed to share or have to keep "Schtum" ?].

    You may be making several boat loads of those for HAAS UMC 500 uptake ?

    Any opinion on HSK 63 "Hogging" versus BBT / dual contact (40 taper) versus regular 40 taper ?

    Ta.

    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ______

    (Hope things are going well with your super awesome beasts of Studer Grinders you got going on there ).

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    40 taper dual contact vs HSK63. A lot has to do about the machine and the spindle. And even then machine to machine can vary 10-20%. Lots of moving parts. How tight the gib or way for the head can make it seem the the spindle is deflecting.

    HSK63 is a great system but does have a design flaw with a thin wall where the id clamping mechanism goes and the outside 1:10 tapered portion reaches the flange. This means proper material and heat treating are critical to make sure this thin wall is strong. During a hard crash this is a known break point.

    In most cases HSk63 is the winner when it comes to overall rigidity. Only time it seems that 40 taper dual contact wins is when roughing with a long 3" or longer length of cut. Like profiling a deep cavity. HSK63 just doesnt have enough taper length in the spindle to absorb and resist deflection. HSK63 just goes 1.26" into the spindle. 40 taper is more than double that!!

    I am sure HAAS was reluctant to get into HSK. But z-axis repeatability in critical in 5 axis work and standard 40 taper in no way gives you the needed tool changer repeatability like HSK or dual contact will. Thats my 2cents.

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  6. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by fmari --MariTool- View Post
    40 taper dual contact vs HSK63. A lot has to do about the machine and the spindle. And even then machine to machine can vary 10-20%. Lots of moving parts. How tight the gib or way for the head can make it seem the the spindle is deflecting.

    HSK63 is a great system but does have a design flaw with a thin wall where the id clamping mechanism goes and the outside 1:10 tapered portion reaches the flange. This means proper material and heat treating are critical to make sure this thin wall is strong. During a hard crash this is a known break point.

    In most cases HSk63 is the winner when it comes to overall rigidity. Only time it seems that 40 taper dual contact wins is when roughing with a long 3" or longer length of cut. Like profiling a deep cavity. HSK63 just doesnt have enough taper length in the spindle to absorb and resist deflection. HSK63 just goes 1.26" into the spindle. 40 taper is more than double that!!

    I am sure HAAS was reluctant to get into HSK. But z-axis repeatability in critical in 5 axis work and standard 40 taper in no way gives you the needed tool changer repeatability like HSK or dual contact will. Thats my 2cents.
    Yeah "Bingo" for me...

    The point being (by design) is the thin (short) walls (as you know) were designed so that centrifugal / centripetal forces would cause greater contact forces against the walls of the spindle taper receptacle. ~ Combat bell mouthing of a spindle nose at higher rpms.

    Hence designed for Higher RPM applications like what XD341 was saying.

    Interesting digging around that the Germans/ HSK peeps had as one of their Motivations for introducing HSK interface was a way to get rid of the pull stud.

    HSK 100 is a different beast.

    +1 (again) on Z-repeatability and HAAS HSK (big selling point for me) depending on how they implement it.

    I think BBT dual contact is extremely rigid and tolerates crashes / big bumps and carries on (below 16K rpm). On the other hand the "fuse" like quality of the HSK 64 is not that bad if you want or hope to protect and really expensive slightly fragile spindle from serious programming blunders ;-)

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    Yeah "Bingo" for me...

    The point being (by design) is the thin (short) walls (as you know) were designed so that centrifugal / centripetal forces would cause greater contact forces against the walls of the spindle taper receptacle. ~ Combat bell mouthing of a spindle nose at higher rpms.

    Hence designed for Higher RPM applications like what XD341 was saying.

    Interesting digging around that the Germans/ HSK peeps had as one of their Motivations for introducing HSK interface was a way to get rid of the pull stud.

    HSK 100 is a different beast.

    +1 (again) on Z-repeatability and HAAS HSK (big selling point for me) depending on how they implement it.

    I think BBT dual contact is extremely rigid and tolerates crashes / big bumps and carries on (below 16K rpm). On the other hand the "fuse" like quality of the HSK 64 is not that bad if you want or hope to protect and really expensive slightly fragile spindle from serious programming blunders ;-)
    I can't imagine having an hsk holder "fuse" while at speed would protect the spindle in any meaningful way. High speed spindles are usually ceramic bearings where the distance from good to junk is short and unidirectional...not to mention whatever damage the freshly liberated portion of the holder is going to do to the taper, machine and potentially the operator.

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    Quote Originally Posted by XD341 View Post
    I can't imagine having an hsk holder "fuse" while at speed would protect the spindle in any meaningful way. High speed spindles are usually ceramic bearings where the distance from good to junk is short and unidirectional...not to mention whatever damage the freshly liberated portion of the holder is going to do to the taper, machine and potentially the operator.
    That's what I was thinking too as in terms of operator friendly / being killed.

    I would prefer a crash at 20K rpms with HSK (63) than dual contact cat 40...

    I certainly get / sympathize with the point you are making re: "save the spindle" ~ Even with something like the Hermle aluminum spindle crash bushings it's still 50/50 … i.e. might save your machine 1/2 of the time rather much less than 1/2 of the time.

    Good point.

    I wonder about the difference between pull stud long taper and equivalent draw bar forces vs. equivalent "drawbar" forces for HSK 63. basically if you whack a long tool sideways into a fixture does that bending moment / torque naturally dislodge the HSK interface whereas with BBT that doesn't happen so easily ? (crazy fast flying pieces of shrapnel not withstanding.).

    Kinda relates to hogging and lateral loads in cut (perhaps) and I guess comes back to specific machine.

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    Related Question - looking in catalogs so far, first cat-40/bt-40 are vastly more common than anything else (not news.)

    AND

    It seems that the "minimum effective gage length" of HSK holders seems to be *longer* than for cat-40. (At least in the catalogs I've searched so far.) [This was noted earlier in this thread.]

    BUT

    It is claimed that the hsk holder is "closer to the front bearings" - and in theory tool-length relative to the *bearings* counts for something, right? (???)

    BUT

    It also seems that HSK has less lever-arm inside the spindle - so the ability to lever off the closer front bearings may be compromised relative to 40 taper?

    AND

    For machines where the max spindle height is *the same* between hsk and cat-40, hsk would seem to have a little clearence advantage. But only if the application doesn't allow for very short gage length cat-40 tools that negate the difference.

    (My DMU60 would have slightly more clearence with HSK - but the larger minimum tool length of the HSK tool holders might eat that up. But many tools are long anyway to allow reaching inside things....)

    Are any of the above factual errors?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bryan_machine View Post
    Related Question - looking in catalogs so far, first cat-40/bt-40 are vastly more common than anything else (not news.)

    AND

    It seems that the "minimum effective gage length" of HSK holders seems to be *longer* than for cat-40. (At least in the catalogs I've searched so far.) [This was noted earlier in this thread.]

    BUT

    It is claimed that the hsk holder is "closer to the front bearings" - and in theory tool-length relative to the *bearings* counts for something, right? (???)

    BUT

    It also seems that HSK has less lever-arm inside the spindle - so the ability to lever off the closer front bearings may be compromised relative to 40 taper?

    AND

    For machines where the max spindle height is *the same* between hsk and cat-40, hsk would seem to have a little clearence advantage. But only if the application doesn't allow for very short gage length cat-40 tools that negate the difference.

    (My DMU60 would have slightly more clearance with HSK - but the larger minimum tool length of the HSK tool holders might eat that up. But many tools are long anyway to allow reaching inside things....)

    Are any of the above factual errors?
    That seems to chime with me... (only one "Peep" / opinion out of many).

    My thing would just to be wary of where a machine originally came from, and was it originally designed with HSK or Capto in mind first. ( I.e. some Japanese and German machines that don't have massive US market share. Or on the other hand they really NEED HSK or Capto (being mandatory). ).

    And maybe extra careful if a spindle has just been re-jigged for the American market ~ Seems that has been the source of some unexpected failures in performance in the past.

    Design intent and purpose of the machine and corresponding spindle I think is paramount, then everything follows from there.

    Personally I don't understand why an MTB would let a customer run a dual contact cat 40 taper / spindle above 15k to 16K rpm ?

    The length of tool / gauge length* vs bearing arrangement is tricky to sort out / parse. Good job ! @bryan_machine

    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _____________


    * I was trying to figure out the intrinsic difference in mass of 40 taper / dual contact tool holders + applications versus typical HSK applications, because of the length of certain HSK tool holders can it always be said they have less mass and corresponding inertia and momentum over conventional long tapered tool holders + tool / cutters ... That may depend on what industry you serve + 3 axis (mold) or 5 axis cutting Inconel all day and all night long ?


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