On The Hunt For a Sim 5 Axis - Need Your Input! Okuma, Mazak, DMG or Doosan ??
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    Question On The Hunt For a Sim 5 Axis - Need Your Input! Okuma, Mazak, DMG or Doosan ??

    Hi Team,

    I work for a turbo charger manufacturing company in Perth, Western Australia.

    We currently run an Okuma L390 lathe (which I adore) and use it to turn the diffuser and exducer profiles on turbo compressor and turbine housings. I use SolidCam to produce the G-Code. I'd like to use that moving forward with a 5ax as they have a dedicated turbo machinery module - although, always open to suggestions

    It has been a goal / dream to be able to machine our own prototype compressor wheels (aluminium) and potentially even turbine wheels (Inconel). These parts have quite complex geometry and surfacing requirements. This is what the machine will be predominantly be used for, along with general work on the cast aluminium & steel housings such as facing, drilling and tapping.

    We don't need a beef cake of a machine that can hog material day in day out. Our work pieces rarely would rarely exceed 300mm^3 (12"^3). Our main requirement is positional accuracy and repeatability as we will need to balance these parts at 180,000+ rpm. Something versatile that can handle a wide range of tasks and materials on top of that is the goal. We were looking at the brother speedio MX300, that would have been perfect but they point blank will not sell us one here.

    The options we have to choose from are:

    DMG Mori - DMU50 GEN3 $450,000

    Mazak - Variax 500 (waiting for quote, roughly around $300,000)

    Okuma - M460V-5ax $380,000

    Doosan - DNM 350/5ax (waiting for quote)



    These are the options that provide local support. The Mazak is looking very appealing at that price point, and we've been assured it will do everything we require. The Okuma is... an Okuma and from what I've read on here everyone seems to love and die by them. I have no idea about the Doosan but they seem to have a good rep. If the DMG is going to be THAT much better than the rest, my boss is open to the idea, but I would need to build a strong case to justify the added expense. All input and help is greatly appreciated! Thank you for your time

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukas D View Post
    Hi Team,

    I work for a turbo charger manufacturing company in Perth, Western Australia.

    We currently run an Okuma L390 lathe (which I adore) and use it to turn the diffuser and exducer profiles on turbo compressor and turbine housings. I use SolidCam to produce the G-Code. I'd like to use that moving forward with a 5ax as they have a dedicated turbo machinery module - although, always open to suggestions

    It has been a goal / dream to be able to machine our own prototype compressor wheels (aluminium) and potentially even turbine wheels (Inconel). These parts have quite complex geometry and surfacing requirements. This is what the machine will be predominantly be used for, along with general work on the cast aluminium & steel housings such as facing, drilling and tapping.

    We don't need a beef cake of a machine that can hog material day in day out. Our work pieces rarely would rarely exceed 300mm^3 (12"^3). Our main requirement is positional accuracy and repeatability as we will need to balance these parts at 180,000+ rpm. Something versatile that can handle a wide range of tasks and materials on top of that is the goal. We were looking at the brother speedio MX300, that would have been perfect but they point blank will not sell us one here.

    The options we have to choose from are:

    DMG Mori - DMU50 GEN3 $450,000

    Mazak - Variax 500 (waiting for quote, roughly around $300,000)

    Okuma - M460V-5ax $380,000

    Doosan - DNM 350/5ax (waiting for quote)



    These are the options that provide local support. The Mazak is looking very appealing at that price point, and we've been assured it will do everything we require. The Okuma is... an Okuma and from what I've read on here everyone seems to love and die by them. I have no idea about the Doosan but they seem to have a good rep. If the DMG is going to be THAT much better than the rest, my boss is open to the idea, but I would need to build a strong case to justify the added expense. All input and help is greatly appreciated! Thank you for your time
    i spent 3 years in that exact industry, have done all you're talking about.
    if you care about getting good surface finish on your wheels, get a heidenhain machine, that control handles this kinda stuff better than anything else.
    i would recommend looking into a Hermle C250 or ideally a C12 if you can. i've made wheels on a C12 and they came out FANTASTIC. if hermle is simply not an option, i'd opt for the okuma out of those. DMG can suck donkey balls.

    feel free to pm me if you have any specific questions, i can try to help

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    No suggestions on the machine, but I'd go for something with good support (both operation and repair) in your area if possible. The other thing I'd suggest is prepare a test program that will use the machine features you consider critical, and have the vendor run it if possible on a showroom machine so you can ensure it really does what it claims.

    Nothing more frustrating than buying a big-ticket item, then fighting it to get it to work as you need.

    What are you using for programming, and will it support barrel-style cutters?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milland View Post
    No suggestions on the machine, but I'd go for something with good support (both operation and repair) in your area if possible. The other thing I'd suggest is prepare a test program that will use the machine features you consider critical, and have the vendor run it if possible on a showroom machine so you can ensure it really does what it claims.

    Nothing more frustrating than buying a big-ticket item, then fighting it to get it to work as you need.

    What are you using for programming, and will it support barrel-style cutters?
    barrel cutters are still novel, and no cam package has those built into the impeller specific toolpaths. it can be done, but requires extra work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by empwoer View Post
    barrel cutters are still novel, and no cam package has those built into the impeller specific toolpaths. it can be done, but requires extra work.
    Hmm, seems like a natural area to go for first. Aren't they using it for blisks?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Milland View Post
    Hmm, seems like a natural area to go for first. Aren't they using it for blisks?
    like i mentioned, you can do it, but its not quite as simple as doing typical point or flank milling type toolpaths in a blisk specific toolpath from mastercam, hypermill or NX.

    you basically have to select each individual surface that you want to finish, make sure the U/V lines are good and oriented properly, then tweak the contact parameters as well as tool shape and size to get down to the root/hub of the blades without collisions.

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    Pretty easy to just us Z level tangent machining on a blisk in hyperMILL. Can't speak to the others.

    Agree that generally barrel tools are overhyped. There are some applications where they are amazing, but they won't magically shave 50% of the cycle time off of all 5 axis parts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by boosted View Post
    Pretty easy to just us Z level tangent machining on a blisk in hyperMILL. Can't speak to the others.

    Agree that generally barrel tools are overhyped. There are some applications where they are amazing, but they won't magically shave 50% of the cycle time off of all 5 axis parts.
    have you tried it?

    i wouldnt say they're overhyped, i use them pretty extensively, but you're right that it does depend a lot on the kind of geometry that you're doing.

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    Bummer. On the other hand, at least the CAM programmer's not obsolete yet...

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    Quote Originally Posted by empwoer View Post
    if you care about getting good surface finish on your wheels, get a heidenhain machine, that control handles this kinda stuff better than anything else.
    I don't think that's true at all. Comes down to quality of machine and quality of integration. For instance, on a Hermle or Mikron you will probably get the best integration with a Heidenhain, but on a Grob or Heckert it's going to be a Siemens. Some of the machines that absolutely crush parts with taxing surfacing (like Roeders) aren't even running either of the popular German controllers.

    Also despite abysmal service in many regions, the DMG MORI DMU50 GEN3 is a fantastic machine. No way I'd pay 450k for one though, unless it had every option under the sun. For that price you may be able to get into the Hemle C12.

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    Quote Originally Posted by empwoer View Post
    have you tried it?

    i wouldnt say they're overhyped, i use them pretty extensively, but you're right that it does depend a lot on the kind of geometry that you're doing.
    I just did tangent milling on a blisk shape a couple of weeks ago, and it was really easy.

    However there have been plenty of times that barrel milling in hyperMILL has failed to generate, when it should have been textbook simple. That's why I say they are overhyped. Like you implied the support is spotty.

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    Quote Originally Posted by boosted View Post
    I don't think that's true at all. Comes down to quality of machine and quality of integration. For instance, on a Hermle or Mikron you will probably get the best integration with a Heidenhain, but on a Grob or Heckert it's going to be a Siemens. Some of the machines that absolutely crush parts with taxing surfacing (like Roeders) aren't even running either of the popular German controllers.

    Also despite abysmal service in many regions, the DMG MORI DMU50 GEN3 is a fantastic machine. No way I'd pay 450k for one though, unless it had every option under the sun. For that price you may be able to get into the Hemle C12.
    i'm just speaking from my experience, and that of the grob sales guy i talked to. fanuc just doesnt even come close to either HH or Siemens. the grob guy did say HH was slightly superior for these types of finishes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by boosted View Post
    I just did tangent milling on a blisk shape a couple of weeks ago, and it was really easy.

    However there have been plenty of times that barrel milling in hyperMILL has failed to generate, when it should have been textbook simple. That's why I say they are overhyped. Like you implied the support is spotty.
    by blisk, are you referring to single turbine blade inserts like for jets? or impeller wheels with multiple blades?
    a single blisk would be a walk in the park, an impeller or compressor wheel is a whole another ballgame with barrel cutters. especially with hypermill, its important to remember, they work best with proper U/V lines, then you gotta play with tool contact parameter, have to remember that depending on where on the tool its trying to touch, it might be colliding with something else on the part. i'm sure you know that, just telling for the folks that dont yet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by empwoer View Post
    by blisk, are you referring to single turbine blade inserts like for jets?
    Just a single blisk. Agreed it's a cakewalk. Perfect application for tangent machining.

    I've only done a couple styles of compressor wheels, and I didn't even attempt to use barrel tools, for the reasons you described.

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    Quote Originally Posted by boosted View Post
    Just a single blisk. Agreed it's a cakewalk. Perfect application for tangent machining.

    I've only done a couple styles of compressor wheels, and I didn't even attempt to use barrel tools, for the reasons you described.
    i love me some barrel tools! but we've gotten off topic a bit :P

    i would HIGHLY recommend OP look into a Hermle C250 or C12.

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    Quote Originally Posted by empwoer View Post
    i'm just speaking from my experience, and that of the grob sales guy i talked to. fanuc just doesnt even come close to either HH or Siemens. the grob guy did say HH was slightly superior for these types of finishes.
    Meh. The salesman is going to tell you whatever you want to hear. I've had the folks at Hermle tell me there is no discernable difference between performance of a Siemens vs HH on their machines (turning was only available with the former control). I'm not repeating that statement as a fact until somebody demonstrates it. I'd bet my bottom dollar that on a Hermle the Heidenhain is going to perform better.

    As much as I agree that Fanucs suck (because they do), Makino continues to do some really impressive shit despite having all of the drives plugged into a potato. The MTB and quality of their product are the most important parts of the equation here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by empwoer View Post
    i love me some barrel tools! but we've gotten off topic a bit :P

    i would HIGHLY recommend OP look into a Hermle C250 or C12.
    Just the C12. Last I looked C250 is really poorly optioned for continuous 5ax.

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    Quote Originally Posted by boosted View Post
    Meh. The salesman is going to tell you whatever you want to hear. I've had the folks at Hermle tell me there is no discernable difference between performance of a Siemens vs HH on their machines (turning was only available with the former control). I'm not repeating that statement as a fact until somebody demonstrates it. I'd bet my bottom dollar that on a Hermle the Heidenhain is going to perform better.

    As much as I agree that Fanucs suck (because they do), Makino continues to do some really impressive shit despite having all of the drives plugged into a potato. The MTB and quality of their product are the most important parts of the equation here.
    what benefit would it be for a grob sales guy (who does 80% siemens control) that HH is slightly better?

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    Quote Originally Posted by empwoer View Post
    what benefit would it be for a grob sales guy (who does 80% siemens control) that HH is slightly better?
    The HH is clearly your preference. So on that day, HH was the best controller.

    When they talk to me, suddenly the Siemens is the best controller.

    When they talk to the shop down the street - they explain how they have a very intimate relationship with FANUC, and on their machines there is almost no difference between a FANUC and a Heidenhain.

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    God I love this forum, thanks so much for the input.

    I had seriously checked out the Hermle machines as i'm fairly sure that's what our current supplier uses. Unfortunately we don't have local (perth based) support for those machines and the distributor is interstate - which would be a nightmare with the current covid situation.

    Our Okuma rep is a really good guy and they offer excellent service so I think, with all things considered that is looking like the best option? Attached below is a picture of what we would be going for. The door in the picture looks like an Okuma so I'm going to assume they were done on that machine. The surface finish is not nearly as nice as what we are currently getting from our supplier, but it would most certainly do the job.

    machine-1.jpg

    machine-2.jpg


    So would I be safe to assume the other options aren't really worth considering? How does the Okuma controller stack up to the HH?


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