On The Hunt For a Sim 5 Axis - Need Your Input! Okuma, Mazak, DMG or Doosan ?? - Page 2
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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukas D View Post
    God I love this forum, thanks so much for the input.

    I had seriously checked out the Hermle machines as i'm fairly sure that's what our current supplier uses. Unfortunately we don't have local (perth based) support for those machines and the distributor is interstate - which would be a nightmare with the current covid situation.

    Our Okuma rep is a really good guy and they offer excellent service so I think, with all things considered that is looking like the best option? Attached below is a picture of what we would be going for. The door in the picture looks like an Okuma so I'm going to assume they were done on that machine. The surface finish is not nearly as nice as what we are currently getting from our supplier, but it would most certainly do the job.

    Attachment 325301

    Attachment 325302


    So would I be safe to assume the other options aren't really worth considering? How does the Okuma controller stack up to the HH?
    oh god, not extreme tuna...

    the finish on the leading edge corner of the blades leaves something to be desired on those wheels IMO.
    as much as it pains me to suggest this, DMG might be your best bet if local service is good.
    okuma is in between fanuc and HH/siemens.

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    While the Okuma is my second choice on your list, I honestly think that the DMU50 is twice the machine the M460-5AX is. That price is absurd though. It better have a 20k spindle, 120 tools, and a pile of accessory options.

    The Okuma controller is okay. The biggest incentive to buy the M460 would be an existing Okuma in your shop. They are pretty user friendly, but the interface is so much different than most other machines that cross training can chew up a lot of time.

    If your compressor wheels just need to look like the one in the picture, you could achieve that on almost any five axis!

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    Quote Originally Posted by boosted View Post
    While the Okuma is my second choice on your list, I honestly think that the DMU50 is twice the machine the M460-5AX is. That price is absurd though. It better have a 20k spindle, 120 tools, and a pile of accessory options.

    The Okuma controller is okay. The biggest incentive to buy the M460 would be an existing Okuma in your shop. They are pretty user friendly, but the interface is so much different than most other machines that cross training can chew up a lot of time.

    If your compressor wheels just need to look like the one in the picture, you could achieve that on almost any five axis!
    cw.jpg

    this is what the finish should look like.
    one of the wheels i did at my old place.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukas D View Post
    Hi Team,

    I work for a turbo charger manufacturing company in Perth, Western Australia.

    We currently run an Okuma L390 lathe (which I adore) and use it to turn the diffuser and exducer profiles on turbo compressor and turbine housings. I use SolidCam to produce the G-Code. I'd like to use that moving forward with a 5ax as they have a dedicated turbo machinery module - although, always open to suggestions

    It has been a goal / dream to be able to machine our own prototype compressor wheels (aluminium) and potentially even turbine wheels (Inconel). These parts have quite complex geometry and surfacing requirements. This is what the machine will be predominantly be used for, along with general work on the cast aluminium & steel housings such as facing, drilling and tapping.

    We don't need a beef cake of a machine that can hog material day in day out. Our work pieces rarely would rarely exceed 300mm^3 (12"^3). Our main requirement is positional accuracy and repeatability as we will need to balance these parts at 180,000+ rpm. Something versatile that can handle a wide range of tasks and materials on top of that is the goal. We were looking at the brother speedio MX300, that would have been perfect but they point blank will not sell us one here.

    The options we have to choose from are:

    DMG Mori - DMU50 GEN3 $450,000

    Mazak - Variax 500 (waiting for quote, roughly around $300,000)

    Okuma - M460V-5ax $380,000

    Doosan - DNM 350/5ax (waiting for quote)



    These are the options that provide local support. The Mazak is looking very appealing at that price point, and we've been assured it will do everything we require. The Okuma is... an Okuma and from what I've read on here everyone seems to love and die by them. I have no idea about the Doosan but they seem to have a good rep. If the DMG is going to be THAT much better than the rest, my boss is open to the idea, but I would need to build a strong case to justify the added expense. All input and help is greatly appreciated! Thank you for your time


    No dog, horse or snail in this race...


    This is what caught my eye,...




    Quote Originally Posted by Lukas D View Post
    Hi Team,

    I work for a turbo charger manufacturing company in Perth, Western Australia.

    We currently run an Okuma L390 lathe (which I adore) and use it to turn the diffuser and exducer profiles on turbo compressor and turbine housings. I use SolidCam to produce the G-Code. I'd like to use that moving forward with a 5ax as they have a dedicated turbo machinery module - although, always open to suggestions

    It has been a goal / dream to be able to machine our own prototype compressor wheels (aluminium) and potentially even turbine wheels (Inconel). These parts have quite complex geometry and surfacing requirements. This is what the machine will be predominantly be used for, along with general work on the cast aluminium & steel housings such as facing, drilling and tapping.

    We don't need a beef cake of a machine that can hog material day in day out. Our work pieces rarely would rarely exceed 300mm^3 (12"^3). Our main requirement is positional accuracy and repeatability as we will need to balance these parts at 180,000+ rpm. Something versatile that can handle a wide range of tasks and materials on top of that is the goal. We were looking at the brother speedio MX300, that would have been perfect but they point blank will not sell us one here.

    The options we have to choose from are:

    DMG Mori - DMU50 GEN3 $450,000

    Mazak - Variax 500 (waiting for quote, roughly around $300,000)

    Okuma - M460V-5ax $380,000

    Doosan - DNM 350/5ax (waiting for quote)



    These are the options that provide local support. The Mazak is looking very appealing at that price point, and we've been assured it will do everything we require. The Okuma is... an Okuma and from what I've read on here everyone seems to love and die by them. I have no idea about the Doosan but they seem to have a good rep. If the DMG is going to be THAT much better than the rest, my boss is open to the idea, but I would need to build a strong case to justify the added expense. All input and help is greatly appreciated! Thank you for your time
    and mainly,

    " Our main requirement is positional accuracy and repeatability as we will need to balance these parts at 180,000+ rpm."

    ^^^ So as a kid and teenager and even into university I was pretty obsessed with building liquid propellant rockets - (small-ish) liquid propellant based systems rather than solid propellant rockets , (basically a fire work vs. a killer piece of tricky and dynamic engineering.).

    My physics teacher pointed out (when I was 15 years old) that if such an intended screw impeller is just very slightly out of balance that the unbalanced forces multiply and compound to the point of shredding everything and producing relatively lethal shrapnel (at the RPMs sufficient to deliver propellant and oxidizer for such a rocket to actually get "off the ground" without killing anybody. ). Although fire engine pumps (slightly different) don't seem to kill anybody but different power / drive source. My Physics teacher basically saying NO - you can't build this in the school machine shop and "Live".

    Point being that turned and bored geometries and properly concentric features and low runout etc. to correctable 5 axis contour / blade machining would or might hang together better on a 5 axis mill turn (B- axis platform) esp. for 180,000 rpm generated forces - I know there are other balancing steps but better to get it right and hang together as best you can in total form tolerances and geometries as any mis-alignments from multiple clampings may be hard to correct or even tease out through metrology/ inspection department. - Hence in process high accuracy 3d probing for some corrective / iterative work (maybe) + turning and milling in one set up accurately. BUT others might shoot that one down (here and elsewhere) - as a "Valid" process.


    $380K might get you an integrex i-200 (B axis / 5 axis sim mill turn machine ). ? probably not an i-300.

    They have a new H series built on the I series integrexes which is more spendy.

    Should play well with SOLIDCAM. MAZAK co test stuff with SolidCAM - together. But Esprit might be a more certain "fit" ?

    There may be things about an integrex H or I series that won't work for you.

    I think the Okuma equivalents in B axis mill turn (5 axis) are much more expensive.

    Most 5 axis vertical machining centers that have turning will not have have sub micron runout on the turning spindle nor achieve 5000, or 6000 rpms, - generally the runout for 5 axis vertical turning trunnion tables are of the order of 5 to ten micron runout.


    __________________________________________________ ___________________________

    In the past (a few years ago) I posted about the Okuma Genos M-460 (V) 5 ax - good build geometry. A sales person told me explicitly that it has scales all axes linear and rotary - I repeated that ; the echo chamber that forums and social media are.

    Seems the Genos M 460 V 5ax does not have direct read scales linear or rotary, but never the less seems really accurate.

    For $380k maybe they made it more like an MB machine and snuck some scales in - I doubt it as that's tricky to balance against their thermo-friendly concept.

    (shrugging shoulders.).

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    Quote Originally Posted by empwoer View Post

    this is what the finish should look like.
    one of the wheels i did at my old place.
    The machined wheel in my FP turbo has smaller stepovers and as nice a finish. It’s ~10 years old. I have no idea who made those, but hats off to whoever did them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by boosted View Post
    The HH is clearly your preference. So on that day, HH was the best controller.

    When they talk to me, suddenly the Siemens is the best controller.

    When they talk to the shop down the street - they explain how they have a very intimate relationship with FANUC, and on their machines there is almost no difference between a FANUC and a Heidenhain.
    A sad but true fact in the world of machine tool sales. I sat in on a sales presentation in the early 90s and sat there amazed when the salesman told the prospective customer that a Fadal was 99% as good as a Mori Seiki.

    More amazing was that the customer believed that and bought the Fadal. I don’t think it was there more than 3-4 months before it was returned and a MV40B put in.

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    Quote Originally Posted by empwoer View Post
    cw.jpg
    I've never done this type of work, and it's hard to tell from the picture but are the fins smooth? Or are those just machine lines?

    How smooth do those fins usually have to be?
    Looks like a fun part to machine!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtndew View Post
    I've never done this type of work, and it's hard to tell from the picture but are the fins smooth? Or are those just machine lines?

    How smooth do those fins usually have to be?
    Looks like a fun part to machine!
    it all depends on the application. thats a .03" stepover with a 3/32 ball mill. you can feel the lines, this one doesnt require to be mirror smooth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by boosted View Post
    Meh. The salesman is going to tell you whatever you want to hear. I've had the folks at Hermle tell me there is no discernable difference between performance of a Siemens vs HH on their machines (turning was only available with the former control). I'm not repeating that statement as a fact until somebody demonstrates it. I'd bet my bottom dollar that on a Hermle the Heidenhain is going to perform better.

    As much as I agree that Fanucs suck (because they do), Makino continues to do some really impressive shit despite having all of the drives plugged into a potato. The MTB and quality of their product are the most important parts of the equation here.
    90%+ of machine tool sales types will tell you whatever you want to hear.

    "What do you think of running hexagon bar in a swiss machine?"

    Sales:

    "No problem! Nearly all our customers run hex bar in OUR swiss machine all the time. It's a great way to save cycle time!".

    Corner the apps guy ....

    Nervous looks and changes the conversation as quick as possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post

    In the past (a few years ago) I posted about the Okuma Genos M-460 (V) 5 ax - good build geometry. A sales person told me explicitly that it has scales all axes linear and rotary - I repeated that ; the echo chamber that forums and social media are.

    Seems the Genos M 460 V 5ax does not have direct read scales linear or rotary, but never the less seems really accurate.

    For $380k maybe they made it more like an MB machine and snuck some scales in - I doubt it as that's tricky to balance against their thermo-friendly concept.

    (shrugging shoulders.).

    My M460-5Ax Has direct linear Scales on the XYZ. It is a Nov 2020 build date. I tore into it to see them.. turns out if it has low pressure air flush setup on the back. Easy to tell. I know the earlier machines were brought in with 32 tools and no augers. Mine has the augers and larger 48t magazine. So they might have com along as that 2nd spec.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TrollTuner View Post
    My M460-5Ax Has direct linear Scales on the XYZ. It is a Nov 2020 build date. I tore into it to see them.. turns out if it has low pressure air flush setup on the back. Easy to tell. I know the earlier machines were brought in with 32 tools and no augers. Mine has the augers and larger 48t magazine. So they might have com along as that 2nd spec.
    I remember you looking for part numbers :-) - much appreciated.

    this is what (at the time) my sales person (very good guy) put in writing.

    Okuma M460V-5AX full NC 5-axis simultaneous control system kit includes:

    1) Tool point control II (includes tool tilt compensation)
    2) Tool point center manual feed
    3) Super NURBS (X,Y,Z,A,C-Axis)
    4) Slope Machining
    5) Table reference coordinate manual feed
    6) Inverse time feed
    7) Tool Posture command
    8) DNC-DT
    9) Glass Scales on every Axis (X,Y,Z,A,C-Axis)


    __________________________________________________ ________________________________


    The sales guy mainly just repeats what he or she has been 'Told" and sometimes there's not really adequate engineering support from the vendor or MTB or just general supply chain of connecting dots to actually supply sales people and their clients / "Prospects" with accurate and actionable information.

    The machine [M-460V 5ax ], is a really neat machine if that's a good fit for whatever someone needs to dooooo,

    [not having direct read scales is not necessarily a deal breaker as the travels are short and build geometry is really GOOD + mature compensation strategies; work volume and layout can be a little tricky for some.].

    But never (as yet) have I seen actual photos of the scales installed, nor in brochures nor in anything else more detailed.
    [not to say they don't exist but not quite "Nessie" the Loch Ness monster - It's far harder to prove that something does not exist.].

    Generally the rule with Genos is no linear scales 'cuz that's MB territory / price range.

    + they really don't want to tread on the toes of others that bought their more expensive and more accurate machines that do have scales all axes in the normally interpreted sense.

    So "Glass scales" is a little vague as the rotary absolute encoders on the end of the ball screws have "Glass scales" - they are just round, and indirectly coupled.

    DMG-Mori for example go out of their way to show where all the linear scales are mounted on a machine in their top level literature or even "Puff piece" youtube videos ?

    Even SHARP* show where their 5 axis gantry style machine rotary Heidenhain encoders and linear are located (actual photos) + brochure specs for rotary axes / positional accuracies / uncertainties and even NAS cone test data - sim 5 axis test;

    SVX-500-F | Sharp Industries Inc.

    ^^^ scroll down etc. + downloadable brochure.

    __________________________________________________ ___________________________________________

    * No affiliation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by enginuity View Post
    90%+ of machine tool sales types will tell you whatever you want to hear.

    <snip> [many scenarios can be inserted here ] .

    Corner the apps guy ....

    Nervous looks and changes the conversation as quick as possible.
    ^^^ I think that's a very accurate statement.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    1) Tool point control II (includes tool tilt compensation)
    2) Tool point center manual feed
    3) Super NURBS (X,Y,Z,A,C-Axis)
    4) Slope Machining
    5) Table reference coordinate manual feed
    6) Inverse time feed
    7) Tool Posture command
    8) DNC-DT
    9) Glass Scales on every Axis (X,Y,Z,A,C-Axis)
    Question; if you have Tool Center Point Control (Version II no less!), what is the Inverse Time Feed for?

    Also, interesting that Okuma is now putting glass scales all around, I remember that being a giant question mark nobody seemed to be able to get a straight answer about.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkoenig View Post
    Question; if you have Tool Center Point Control (Version II no less!), what is the Inverse Time Feed for?
    Some people like to do things the hard way. EG is going to chime in at any moment about how the best way to program a compressor wheel is using APT generated code and inverse time feed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    No dog, horse or snail in this race...


    This is what caught my eye,...






    and mainly,

    " Our main requirement is positional accuracy and repeatability as we will need to balance these parts at 180,000+ rpm."

    ^^^ So as a kid and teenager and even into university I was pretty obsessed with building liquid propellant rockets - (small-ish) liquid propellant based systems rather than solid propellant rockets , (basically a fire work vs. a killer piece of tricky and dynamic engineering.).

    My physics teacher pointed out (when I was 15 years old) that if such an intended screw impeller is just very slightly out of balance that the unbalanced forces multiply and compound to the point of shredding everything and producing relatively lethal shrapnel (at the RPMs sufficient to deliver propellant and oxidizer for such a rocket to actually get "off the ground" without killing anybody. ). Although fire engine pumps (slightly different) don't seem to kill anybody but different power / drive source. My Physics teacher basically saying NO - you can't build this in the school machine shop and "Live".

    Point being that turned and bored geometries and properly concentric features and low runout etc. to correctable 5 axis contour / blade machining would or might hang together better on a 5 axis mill turn (B- axis platform) esp. for 180,000 rpm generated forces - I know there are other balancing steps but better to get it right and hang together as best you can in total form tolerances and geometries as any mis-alignments from multiple clampings may be hard to correct or even tease out through metrology/ inspection department. - Hence in process high accuracy 3d probing for some corrective / iterative work (maybe) + turning and milling in one set up accurately. BUT others might shoot that one down (here and elsewhere) - as a "Valid" process.


    $380K might get you an integrex i-200 (B axis / 5 axis sim mill turn machine ). ? probably not an i-300.

    They have a new H series built on the I series integrexes which is more spendy.

    Should play well with SOLIDCAM. MAZAK co test stuff with SolidCAM - together. But Esprit might be a more certain "fit" ?

    There may be things about an integrex H or I series that won't work for you.

    I think the Okuma equivalents in B axis mill turn (5 axis) are much more expensive.

    Most 5 axis vertical machining centers that have turning will not have have sub micron runout on the turning spindle nor achieve 5000, or 6000 rpms, - generally the runout for 5 axis vertical turning trunnion tables are of the order of 5 to ten micron runout.


    __________________________________________________ ___________________________

    In the past (a few years ago) I posted about the Okuma Genos M-460 (V) 5 ax - good build geometry. A sales person told me explicitly that it has scales all axes linear and rotary - I repeated that ; the echo chamber that forums and social media are.

    Seems the Genos M 460 V 5ax does not have direct read scales linear or rotary, but never the less seems really accurate.

    For $380k maybe they made it more like an MB machine and snuck some scales in - I doubt it as that's tricky to balance against their thermo-friendly concept.

    (shrugging shoulders.).
    Very good point. We had considered a Multus / Millturn style machine - my boss really likes them, but I am put off by the setup challenges (will need to pour a slab, they're an enormous machine, slow tool changes, less part fixturing versatility, nightmare to level (apparently)) I have heard of a few guy running a tombstone on them but it all sounds a bit too hard. There's ceratainly a strong case for it with the type of work we'll be doing but space is at a premium in our shop and their cost - definitely not closed off to the idea. Have you ever run a millturn style machine Cameraman?

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    Quote Originally Posted by empwoer View Post
    oh god, not extreme tuna...

    the finish on the leading edge corner of the blades leaves something to be desired on those wheels IMO.
    as much as it pains me to suggest this, DMG might be your best bet if local service is good.
    okuma is in between fanuc and HH/siemens.
    Hahahaha! Yeah, they have a bad rep. It's a cool looking wheel design though, I thought it would be the best to help illustrate the criteria. I had a chat with the DMG rep and he mentioned their machines have glass scales on the X,Y,Z and encoders on the rest - 'direct scale feedback'. Looks like it has the best specs on paper. What about them had put you off? After sales support, or the machine itself?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukas D View Post
    Very good point. We had considered a Multus / Millturn style machine - my boss really likes them, but I am put off by the setup challenges (will need to pour a slab, they're an enormous machine, slow tool changes, less part fixturing versatility, nightmare to level (apparently)) I have heard of a few guy running a tombstone on them but it all sounds a bit too hard. There's ceratainly a strong case for it with the type of work we'll be doing but space is at a premium in our shop and their cost - definitely not closed off to the idea. Have you ever run a millturn style machine Cameraman?
    Can't speak to the Multus, but my NTX was a treat to level. It only has 3 feet. It's a 35,000lb machine and I didn't pour the proper foundation for it, generally for keeping level and isolating vibration. Keeping level isn't such a big deal on a tripod as it cannot twist. And the potential microvibrations from other equipment is of no concern in my application.
    I looked at the Doosan SMX and it has 17 feet. I am thinking that would be significantly harder to level, and keep level making the slab significantly more important.

    If the machine has a lower turret for turning this greatly reduces the time for tool changes, and if the next tool is prestaged the toolchange is actually quite fast. I only find it slow when I have short operation times with having to grab a tool from the far tool chain. Honestly, if you're not looking for all out performance in tool changes and cycle time it's fine. I think the longest a tool change can be is around 6.4 seconds.

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    Quote Originally Posted by boosted View Post
    While the Okuma is my second choice on your list, I honestly think that the DMU50 is twice the machine the M460-5AX is. That price is absurd though. It better have a 20k spindle, 120 tools, and a pile of accessory options.

    The Okuma controller is okay. The biggest incentive to buy the M460 would be an existing Okuma in your shop. They are pretty user friendly, but the interface is so much different than most other machines that cross training can chew up a lot of time.

    If your compressor wheels just need to look like the one in the picture, you could achieve that on almost any five axis!
    Well... it's somewhat comforting to know how achievable that is haha. Bear in mind these prices are in Australian DollaryDoo's. I just got off the phone with the rep and the price of the base model has come down 34k since we last spoke, so I think they are pretty flexible on the price. This is for the base model though, 20bar coolant no filter, 60 tool magazine etc

    Yeah the different controllers is definitely something in the back of my mind would be cool to learn a different platform. I've only done turning so far, so i'm not super invested one way or the other, would likely be a similar (steeeep) learning curve either way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukas D View Post
    Hahahaha! Yeah, they have a bad rep. It's a cool looking wheel design though, I thought it would be the best to help illustrate the criteria. I had a chat with the DMG rep and he mentioned their machines have glass scales on the X,Y,Z and encoders on the rest - 'direct scale feedback'. Looks like it has the best specs on paper. What about them had put you off? After sales support, or the machine itself?
    both, my personal experience with DMG has been nothing but terrible. i'll never run one of their machines again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukas D View Post
    Well... it's somewhat comforting to know how achievable that is haha. Bear in mind these prices are in Australian DollaryDoo's. I just got off the phone with the rep and the price of the base model has come down 34k since we last spoke, so I think they are pretty flexible on the price. This is for the base model though, 20bar coolant no filter, 60 tool magazine etc

    Yeah the different controllers is definitely something in the back of my mind would be cool to learn a different platform. I've only done turning so far, so i'm not super invested one way or the other, would likely be a similar (steeeep) learning curve either way.
    you're going to want a paper band filtration system, making compressor wheels is gonna be a lot of TINY chips that'll be a pain in the ass to deal with.

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