On The Hunt For a Sim 5 Axis - Need Your Input! Okuma, Mazak, DMG or Doosan ?? - Page 3
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    Quote Originally Posted by empwoer View Post
    you're going to want a paper band filtration system, making compressor wheels is gonna be a lot of TINY chips that'll be a pain in the ass to deal with.
    Got ya. They're asking an extra 60k for the filtration system - does that seems right? I cant see how a pump and filter has jacked the price up like that.
    As for your experience with them, that really sucks. Thank you for the honest feedback.

    Is the Mazak worth a good look at? I like the DMG and Mazak for the direction the table rocks, seems like you'd have much better visual access to the parts and better for loading etc,

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukas D View Post
    Got ya. They're asking an extra 60k for the filtration system - does that seems right? I cant see how a pump and filter has jacked the price up like that.
    As for your experience with them, that really sucks. Thank you for the honest feedback.

    Is the Mazak worth a good look at? I like the DMG and Mazak for the direction the table rocks, seems like you'd have much better visual access to the parts and better for loading etc,
    that sounds about right. and worth it, IMO. but i'm not a patient person, dont have time to deal with shit like shoveling chips out, ensuring coolant tanks dont get plugged up and overflow etc.

    i dont have any personal experience with Mazak, so i wont speak to it.

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    If you cant get a Brother here, have you looked at Fanuc Robodrill to see if they are suitable?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukas D View Post
    Got ya. They're asking an extra 60k for the filtration system - does that seems right? I cant see how a pump and filter has jacked the price up like that.
    As for your experience with them, that really sucks. Thank you for the honest feedback.

    Is the Mazak worth a good look at? I like the DMG and Mazak for the direction the table rocks, seems like you'd have much better visual access to the parts and better for loading etc,
    Are you looking at a i-500 or j-500 Variaxis machine? I have extensive experience with them, I'm an AE with Mazak. What were you looking at for options?

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    I'm a little biased as I used to work for them, but Doosan is a good value for the money - lots of "bang for the buck." With that said the Okuma is tough to beat. The OSP control is just flat out fantastic. VERY fast, powerful and way more memory as standard. The Okuma doesn't need scales because of the encoder feedback system it uses. In my shop, it's Okuma.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DouglasJRizzo View Post
    I'm a little biased as I used to work for them, but Doosan is a good value for the money - lots of "bang for the buck." With that said the Okuma is tough to beat. The OSP control is just flat out fantastic. VERY fast, powerful and way more memory as standard. The Okuma doesn't need scales because of the encoder feedback system it uses. In my shop, it's Okuma.
    doesnt need scales is a pretty weak statement at best.
    the scales are there for verification in case the encoder(s) go bad/error out. redundancy is good.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkoenig View Post
    Question; if you have Tool Center Point Control (Version II no less!), what is the Inverse Time Feed for?

    Also, interesting that Okuma is now putting glass scales all around, I remember that being a giant question mark nobody seemed to be able to get a straight answer about.
    Sorry I should have made that more clear ~ that was from a few years ago when the M-460V 5ax had been out for a year or 18 months.

    But still not clear on the physical existence and form of "Glass scales"

    $380K ? not sure what comes with that ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukas D View Post
    Very good point. We had considered a Multus / Millturn style machine - my boss really likes them, but I am put off by the setup challenges (will need to pour a slab, they're an enormous machine, slow tool changes, less part fixturing versatility, nightmare to level (apparently)) I have heard of a few guy running a tombstone on them but it all sounds a bit too hard. There's ceratainly a strong case for it with the type of work we'll be doing but space is at a premium in our shop and their cost - definitely not closed off to the idea. Have you ever run a millturn style machine Cameraman?


    Quote Originally Posted by Lukas D View Post
    Have you ever run a millturn style machine Cameraman?
    Does watching every Peter Stanton / Edge Precision youtube-video ever made at least four times count ? [+ taking notes / making design revisions ? ]. ;-) ,

    [Apologies for length.].

    [ Can't really tell you what you need to do for you - of course - as only YOU know what you need for you and your outfit ; but here's some of the what's and whys for what I need to get done, but not a million miles away from your need to iteratively prototype stuff and improve existing products + maintain pretty tight 3D form tolerances in a consistent-ish process oriented way - while much of what you make is constantly in flux and never really "Set in stone" .]. (At least maybe from what I can tell so far from what you've laid out ... (thumbs up) or maybe I'm over-mapping my "reality" onto your situation. . apologies if that seems to be the case. ).

    Yes I have - but not a mountain of chips to my name; I have also spent "Moderated" - "quality-time" on an i-200 over a three day period + time with MAZAK applications team in LA + gleaned useful information from a 'Big wheel" locally that gave a presentation in LA about his "Fleet" of 5 axis mill-turns (integ-re-cies ?) of varying sizes and capabilities + (sandvik smart boring tools etc. + other process/digital extensions) ~ All in one side of his shop, versus the quoted "Dinosaur" processes in the other side of his shop edging ever closer to extinction (or at least that's the way he framed it :-) ) and framed in terms of the kinds of "Peeps" and associated mindsets of those that he employs to run those more conventional non-multi tasking machines - in spite of these machines being pretty new but more regular styled free standing 3 axis MAZAK mills and turning centers. - [ No judgement but maybe will elaborate on that later perhaps.] + Also doing due diligence I spent time with the Japan facing MAZAK chief applications engineer. [Additionally, over a number of years have basically sought out "Peeps" that have run integrex machines from all over the world to get their shop floor / school of hard knocks - opinion and experiences of them / "interview them" (somewhat) - [will get back to that later...].

    So at the control / smooth X control ran through with an AE a bunch of sketched out (quite complex parts) and key components and seems like I/we could "Doooo" about 85% of our parts directly on the control/ using only Mazatrol. We have CAD/CAM but was interesting to see how far we could actually get with MAZATROL lol. Maza-trolling maza-lol ?

    Normally in terms of my own mindset and current (ongoing) applications initially had been working 4th axis rotary and various set ups on 3 axis mill , + various 2 axis lathes. [there are real limitations for what we need with that set of processes.]

    I personally like the "Purity" of two axis machine versus a complex MSY type lathe/ turning center and driven tooling - not really for me , I understand their use and practicality at scale (for sure).

    So "Mindset" is for GOOD milling on a turned part - do that on a mill. So in terms of accurately referenced surfaces requires building (what I call) dynamic fixtures and then we get into grinding/ "Tool maker" territory. ~ slow careful setups to re-reference geometry.

    Basically parts would have to go between "Milling" and "Turning" setups seven times (at least) + building special fixtures.

    [I'll explain the deal with concentric and orthogonal surfaces + precision angular features and related tolerances (later on perhaps ) ]

    Some of the key parts we have are also longer and complex but weirdly (in most cases) not requiring a Y axis reach greater than 8" .

    An accurate and concentric and accurately live contouring spindle is pretty essential for 1/2 of what we do/need.

    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _______

    I broke the designs and associated processes for our key applications down in one of several ways to doooo and really accomplish what we have to do...

    1. 5 axis mill-turn - integrex really. [+ "special" finish work on custom built simple machines .]. [We can build those machines (built on thick granite surface plates) using components made on the Integrex platform .].

    2. 5 axis vertical + 2 axis turning center + 3 axis (long mill) with special fixtures and driven 4th axis. [Made the designs very complex and not really cost effective from a production process point of view nor for our customers point of view. [+ "special" finish work on custom built simple machines .]

    3. 3 axis (hyper precise) machine + special fixtures + Wire EDM + surface/ form grinding + many set ups + optical alignment fixtures + "Some" turning. [Some finish work.].

    4. Designing out "Turning" altogether 5 or 3 axis vertical, special dynamic fixtures, surface grinding/ form grinding, some wire EDM + jig grinding.


    ^^^ The design and functional design engineering is modified considerably for each (numerated case) to accomplish the same overall technical (solutions) and "product" goals.

    Seems the positional 5 axis 3+2 and 4+1 mill-turn / B axis approach also yields the cleanest and most efficient product/engineering designs (for us). And seemingly (for now) good on floor space / production efficiency for the volume of precision work we have to "munch" through for maybe eight years and after that ??? [So product design fits process + viable business model and market(s) we go after.].


    So

    ...but I am put off by the setup challenges (will need to pour a slab, they're an enormous machine, slow tool changes, less part fixturing versatility, nightmare to level (apparently)) I have heard of a few guy running a tombstone on them but it all sounds a bit too hard.
    ^^^ So for me - totally worth it. The footprint (setting up a new shop) is not that hideous IMO [the integrexes don't need quite as much height clearances as most verticals (3 or 5 axis) ] , and compared to all the greater number of machines I would need (+ staff) in a non- 5 axis mill-turn scenario to accomplish the same tasks - "said" cited machines - ALL still need good foundations (mostly) unless it's a 3 legged machine or a Hermle. [Not sure how that compares / stacks up against Okuma 5/B-axis Mill-turn machines on floor space and height for the kinds of models you might be going for ? ]. ~ Some of these seemingly compact 5 axis machines really do sprawl out with all the extra "Gubbins" for filtration systems and coolant tanks/ pumps etc. - Somehow MAZAK manage to make that a little cleaner ? Not perfect but noticeably different in some cases. The Hermles seem to have quite a bit of lateral sprawl and something like a DMU 65 Mb (nice looking from the front) has a veritable -junk yard sprawl out behind the machine. The Okuma M460V 5 ax seems pretty compact all round by comparison.

    I have experience in leveling multifoot-ed dynamic (pretty heavy) equipment ; but yes a bad installation can cause a machine to rock across a diagonal pair of feet and cause (in some instances) discrepancy between a lower turret, turning spindle and B axis milling spindle. So for me I'm not that into lower turrets. I have few (open) questions about the MAZAK tail-stocks though on J-200 and i-200 ? Possibility of drift over a longer period of time vs. taper correction for long parts .

    In our case we would be able to cut down pretty dramatically the number of fixtures we would need, + be able to prototype new things and on going development in a fairly intuitive way on the MAZAK / Integrex platform with an "Eye" to buying more machines built round that process (for many reasons).


    Basically learn the snot out of those related processes in an ongoing way and attempt to raise our game on a continuous basis not matter what - not stand still. But start off realllll slowwww.
    __________________________

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    Quote Originally Posted by empwoer View Post
    doesnt need scales is a pretty weak statement at best.
    the scales are there for verification in case the encoder(s) go bad/error out. redundancy is good.
    Mine holds tenths all day. Not weak at all in my book.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DouglasJRizzo View Post
    Mine holds tenths all day. Not weak at all in my book.
    WTF? This again???

    Unless you are talking about an M460V-5AX, that statement is worthless. GTFO of here with blanket Okuma fanboy posts. This shit is driving me insane. It's not helpful, and barely relevant.

    If you can provide data to show that an Okuma M460 without scales performs as well as a Variaxis 500 or DMU 50 with scales, then by all means proceed. Otherwise saying shit like "mine holds tenths" is totally unsubstantial worthless noise, since it is not measured against anything.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    No dog, horse or snail in this race...


    This is what caught my eye,...






    and mainly,

    " Our main requirement is positional accuracy and repeatability as we will need to balance these parts at 180,000+ rpm."

    ^^^ So as a kid and teenager and even into university I was pretty obsessed with building liquid propellant rockets - (small-ish) liquid propellant based systems rather than solid propellant rockets , (basically a fire work vs. a killer piece of tricky and dynamic engineering.).

    My physics teacher pointed out (when I was 15 years old) that if such an intended screw impeller is just very slightly out of balance that the unbalanced forces multiply and compound to the point of shredding everything and producing relatively lethal shrapnel (at the RPMs sufficient to deliver propellant and oxidizer for such a rocket to actually get "off the ground" without killing anybody. ). Although fire engine pumps (slightly different) don't seem to kill anybody but different power / drive source. My Physics teacher basically saying NO - you can't build this in the school machine shop and "Live".

    Point being that turned and bored geometries and properly concentric features and low runout etc. to correctable 5 axis contour / blade machining would or might hang together better on a 5 axis mill turn (B- axis platform) esp. for 180,000 rpm generated forces - I know there are other balancing steps but better to get it right and hang together as best you can in total form tolerances and geometries as any mis-alignments from multiple clampings may be hard to correct or even tease out through metrology/ inspection department. - Hence in process high accuracy 3d probing for some corrective / iterative work (maybe) + turning and milling in one set up accurately. BUT others might shoot that one down (here and elsewhere) - as a "Valid" process.


    $380K might get you an integrex i-200 (B axis / 5 axis sim mill turn machine ). ? probably not an i-300.

    They have a new H series built on the I series integrexes which is more spendy.

    Should play well with SOLIDCAM. MAZAK co test stuff with SolidCAM - together. But Esprit might be a more certain "fit" ?

    There may be things about an integrex H or I series that won't work for you.

    I think the Okuma equivalents in B axis mill turn (5 axis) are much more expensive.

    Most 5 axis vertical machining centers that have turning will not have have sub micron runout on the turning spindle nor achieve 5000, or 6000 rpms, - generally the runout for 5 axis vertical turning trunnion tables are of the order of 5 to ten micron runout.


    __________________________________________________ ___________________________

    In the past (a few years ago) I posted about the Okuma Genos M-460 (V) 5 ax - good build geometry. A sales person told me explicitly that it has scales all axes linear and rotary - I repeated that ; the echo chamber that forums and social media are.

    Seems the Genos M 460 V 5ax does not have direct read scales linear or rotary, but never the less seems really accurate.

    For $380k maybe they made it more like an MB machine and snuck some scales in - I doubt it as that's tricky to balance against their thermo-friendly concept.

    (shrugging shoulders.).
    I thought it had scales on the linear axis but not the rotary?

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    Quote Originally Posted by DouglasJRizzo View Post
    Mine holds tenths all day. Not weak at all in my book.
    what you said has ZERO to do with what i said...

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    Quote Originally Posted by boosted View Post
    WTF? This again???

    Unless you are talking about an M460V-5AX, that statement is worthless. GTFO of here with blanket Okuma fanboy posts. This shit is driving me insane. It's not helpful, and barely relevant.

    If you can provide data to show that an Okuma M460 without scales performs as well as a Variaxis 500 or DMU 50 with scales, then by all means proceed. Otherwise saying shit like "mine holds tenths" is totally unsubstantial worthless noise, since it is not measured against anything.
    Maybe turn down the boost?
    As far as "worthless noise" - they said that about Mozart too. Just sayin'..

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    Quote Originally Posted by DouglasJRizzo View Post
    The OSP control is just flat out fantastic. VERY fast, powerful and way more memory as standard.
    Way more memory than what? A Fanuc? A casio? A coffee can?

    It doesn't have more memory than the standard controller on the Mazak or the DMG MORI on that list.

    You just chime in on these posts to make totally unsubstantiated claims that Okuma is the greatest... A fact that you know because you got an old lathe from your dad, and you used to work for one of the budget builders.

    Okuma is fine, and I believe that they are making you money. That doesn't make them the best builder for every use case. Start backing your statements up with facts and it won't raise my hackles so much...

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    Quote Originally Posted by boosted View Post
    Way more memory than what? A Fanuc? A casio? A coffee can?

    It doesn't have more memory than the standard controller on the Mazak or the DMG MORI on that list.

    You just chime in on these posts to make totally unsubstantiated claims that Okuma is the greatest... A fact that you know because you got an old lathe from your dad, and you used to work for one of the budget builders.

    Okuma is fine, and I believe that they are making you money. That doesn't make them the best builder for every use case. Start backing your statements up with facts and it won't raise my hackles so much...
    I can "chime in" just about anytime I feel like it.
    I don't make "claims," I state things as I see and know them to be.
    Never said "anyone" was the best "in every use."
    Don't have to prove a thing, to you, or anyone else.
    Don't care if your "hackles" are raised.
    One thing I've learned, what others "think" doesn't mean a damned thing to me.

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    Its a statement relevant to stability, which is an important factor but in the realm of 5ax things are more complex.

    I think most machines fall into bands of accuracy. Okuma is in the middle somewhere. Haas at the bottom, something like a Kern near the top.

    None of the pictures shown in this thread really address the accuracy or suitability of a machine to the task. More the ability of the programmer or the desired cycle time. They all can do it. Some will have features that make life easier on the operator, or the ability to complete the cycle to equal quality some % faster than others. But every machine listed in the OP will do the job. you're not making rocket parts.

    So, buy the machine that works best for your situation, that may be cost, automation, quality of service, familiarity with the control or reputation for reliability. A bad ass Kern that's broken doesn't make anything. Making $20 parts on a million dollar machine doesn't pay the bills.


    You may find that a machine that needs longer to make a part isn't a show stopper because it can be automated and run longer unattended, or that the service is so bad from a dealer that even though they sell a better machine the risk isn't worth it in the long run.

    We can discuss scales and compensations and technology all day, but the really important things aren't that complex. The single digit micron difference in accuracy between machines of similar cost isn't a deal breaker for your intended use. You're CAM and experience is a larger factor than the differences between quality machines.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DouglasJRizzo View Post
    I don't make "claims," I state things as I see and know them to be.
    Pretty sure that the definition of a "claim" is when you make a statement without providing evidence or proof...

    Obviously I can't stop you from filling these threads up with worthless claims of Okuma infallibility, but it will continue to confuse and frustrate...

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    Quote Originally Posted by XD341 View Post
    I thought it had scales on the linear axis but not the rotary?
    Honestly I'm not a 100% on that ...

    I agree with what you were saying about (essentially) short travels probably not needing physical scales as (as you know better than me) how the thermal compensation "Thermo-friendly" Okuma concept on the machine works + really symmetric design (even, square and isometric expansion and contraction / (lower angular warping of the frame through thermal changes) + GOOD heat sink and thermal "well" with thick (rectilinear) castings.

    Good ball screws mapped out (pitch error compensation) + GOOD very repeatable and predictable thermal mapping over over 30" ?

    Theoretical - linear physical scales - on a machine also expand and contract , so thermal management has to fudge that against the mapped out expansion/ contraction of the machine.

    Not impossible but more for ultra precise positional work versus something dynamic / contouring.

    Card carrying mold work is a different animal when taken to it's extremes - Makino style.

    I think Okuma have a new Brochure out on the M-460V 5ax - so who knows maybe there's a nice "Reveal" there :-) + is there a newer control ?

    __________________________________________________ ______________

    The German (Okuma) sales side and presentations kinda framed the high precision absolute encoder (with the glass circular scale) on the end of the ball screw as "effectively" a linear "glass scale" as a single assembly. It's a little slippery I gotta admit. Maybe that's changed.

    The Trunion on the M-460V 5ax is made by a specialist company in Taiwan - so theoretically they could put direct read larger diameter circular scales on that 5 axis trunnion assembly but they rely more on geared indirect high precision rotary encoders as specc'd and integrated by Okuma.

    I think it's genuinely within +/- 3 arc seconds (at least) but maybe a question of how that wears over time and can that be tightened up on perhaps ? ~ Seems on machine calibration would go really well on that machine given it's pretty excellent build geometry.

    [Still for the $ - ? , seemingly indestructible machine.].

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    Honestly I'm not a 100% on that ...

    I agree with what you were saying about (essentially) short travels probably not needing physical scales as (as you know better than me) how the thermal compensation "Thermo-friendly" Okuma concept on the machine works + really symmetric design (even, square and isometric expansion and contraction / (lower angular warping of the frame through thermal changes) + GOOD heat sink and thermal "well" with thick (rectilinear) castings.

    Good ball screws mapped out (pitch error compensation) + GOOD very repeatable and predictable thermal mapping over over 30" ?

    Theoretical - linear physical scales - on a machine also expand and contract , so thermal management has to fudge that against the mapped out expansion/ contraction of the machine.

    Not impossible but more for ultra precise positional work versus something dynamic / contouring.

    Card carrying mold work is a different animal when taken to it's extremes - Makino style.

    I think Okuma have a new Brochure out on the M-460V 5ax - so who knows maybe there's a nice "Reveal" there :-) + is there a newer control ?

    __________________________________________________ ______________

    The German (Okuma) sales side and presentations kinda framed the high precision absolute encoder (with the glass circular scale) on the end of the ball screw as "effectively" a linear "glass scale" as a single assembly. It's a little slippery I gotta admit. Maybe that's changed.

    The Trunion on the M-460V 5ax is made by a specialist company in Taiwan - so theoretically they could put direct read larger diameter circular scales on that 5 axis trunnion assembly but they rely more on geared indirect high precision rotary encoders as specc'd and integrated by Okuma.

    I think it's genuinely within +/- 3 arc seconds (at least) but maybe a question of how that wears over time and can that be tightened up on perhaps ? ~ Seems on machine calibration would go really well on that machine given it's pretty excellent build geometry.

    [Still for the $ - ? , seemingly indestructible machine.].
    I think there is a reason that the 5ax autotune feature is standard on that machine. While the gear train of the table might wear over time, none of the typical systems found in 5ax machines are error free and errors are measured and compensated for on every build. If the machine can essentially inspect itself and compensate I think that brings a lot of long term accuracy to the table. Seems like a similar philosophy to the thermal comp.

    Measure, map and compensate.

    Some builders actively cool everything and don't try to compensate. In your line of work those difference can make or break you. Making turbo parts...not so much.

    Comes down to what level you need, I'd argue OP is beyond a Haas and someplace south of an Okuma but all the ancillary features I mentioned are probably more important. I wouldn't ever feel bad buying an Okuma but a Doosan with automation might make me more money. Something like a Grob or Kern is such overkill that it constitutes a bad business decision, based on the example work that was shown.

    We love to dork out on machine technology because...well...we're dorks. But sometimes we miss the forest for the trees.

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    Quote Originally Posted by XD341 View Post
    I think there is a reason that the 5ax autotune feature is standard on that machine. While the gear train of the table might wear over time, none of the typical systems found in 5ax machines are error free and errors are measured and compensated for on every build. If the machine can essentially inspect itself and compensate I think that brings a lot of long term accuracy to the table. Seems like a similar philosophy to the thermal comp.

    Measure, map and compensate.

    Some builders actively cool everything and don't try to compensate. In your line of work those difference can make or break you. Making turbo parts...not so much.

    Comes down to what level you need, I'd argue OP is beyond a Haas and someplace south of an Okuma but all the ancillary features I mentioned are probably more important. I wouldn't ever feel bad buying an Okuma but a Doosan with automation might make me more money. Something like a Grob or Kern is such overkill that it constitutes a bad business decision, based on the example work that was shown.

    We love to dork out on machine technology because...well...we're dorks. But sometimes we miss the forest for the trees.
    i disagree that kern would be a bad business decision. if compressor wheels are the ONLY thing he's doing, i'd argue its an IDEAL machine to go with. i've had Kern do a demo for us at my old job. without divulging any confidential information, that machine would PRINT money just doing compressor wheels if you had the volume.


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