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Hurco VMX 42i Vs Doosan DNM S 5700 Vs YCM NSV 106AM

Floyd29

Plastic
Joined
Jan 29, 2017
Hi,

We are into die & mould manufacturing for sports application with lot of 3d contouring. We intend to do roughing & finishing on the same machine. The metals we cut are mostly 420 Stainless steel & P20 alloy steel. We do you endmills & ball mills ranging from 30 mm to 1mm.
Although Makino is one of the best choice for us but its too pricey.
Looking at the financial constraints we are now considering these three machines -

1. Doosan DNM S with 15000 RPM, HSK Spindle with linear glass scale & Fanuc Oi controller with 400 block look aheads
2. YCM NSV with 15000 RPM - BBT 40 spindle with same Fanuc Oi controller.
3. Hurco VMX 42i with 18000 RPM - HSK spindle with Hurco Controller.
All above machines are C frame.

In our area we have quite a few Doosan installations followed by fewer YCM but NO Hurco so far. So from service point of view we have no reference for Hurco. Although Hurco is the only company out of above three who is selling machines directly & not through a dealer.

From the research done so far we feel the out of above, YCM NSV is perhaps the most rigid machine with heaviest casting, 45 mm ball screw, six support blocks in X axis, Oil-air mist lubrication system for spindle bearing. Doosan DNM comes second but we are completely unaware about Hurco at this point of time from durability point of view. We think that Hurco 18000 RPM coupled with perhaps what they claim as more capable controller is a choice worth considering.


Which of the above machine do you think is most suitable considering accuracy, surface finish with complex shapes & long term reliability?

Thanks & looking forward to your opinions.
 
I think nobody has replied in two days because those three machines, configured the way you describe, are not readily available in the US where most of the PM forum members are.

The Doosan DNM 5700
doosan-dnm-5700.jpg

The YCM NSV 106
NSV-102_%E8%A3%B8-e1461060513391.jpg

The Hurco VMX42i
1___VMX42i-frame-angle.jpg


It's a tough choice. The Hurco and the Doosan use single ballscrew nuts and have weaker axis motors (unless you get the dealers to prove otherwise) which would make the YCM machine the fastest in acceleration and it will not develop backlash for a much longer time than the other two machines. But the Doosan and the Hurco have HSK spindles, which are more rigid at those high RPMs. It might not make a difference if you are profiling with small ball endmills in dual contact holders.

The Hurco has the best control by far, it has two large touch screens with good 3d graphics. I think Hurco makes a ton of money by charging for software features individually so beware of what they offer and what you would have to purchase to make the control worth it. If they have no local support and you crash the machine, you may have to wait months to get a replacement spindle. So check parts availability with Hurco.


Can you tell us what the quotes were for those three machines in India? Last I heard here in the US, the Makino you mention (I'm assuming PS105) costs around $140,000, the Doosan DNM 5700 (CT40, no scales) is ~$90,000, the YCM NSV 102 is ~$135,000, and the Hurco VMX42i (CT40) is ~120,000. Hard to track these numbers given the dealers are inconsistent and nobody lists prices.

When I bought a VMC I went with the Doosan DNM 5700, but my application is large aluminum parts. The Fanuc controller is annoying and it wastes a lot of time; mine doesn't have much look-ahead, although I don't need it for the parts I make. I can tell you that the thermal stability of the machine is pretty good since it has a spindle chiller, I do not have to deal with thermal expansion affecting my part dimensions.
 
As I've said in other threads, I work for Doosan, so I'm a "little" biased. But I can tell you that the DNM is a grand machine that will serve you well. The others are fine machines also.

FWIW, Doosan provides training and applications support free for life.
 
I`m with Generic Default on the Doosan Fanuc OI-MF control not being user friendly ,,, It was ok on speed for 2 1/2 axis work but I think for 3D it would not keep up and upgrading a Fanuc to make it faster or have more memory is big bucks .... FYI you cant run programs off a USB stick with that control.. you can "ONLY" upload and download

If hurco has a good dealer in your area I would take a close look at them ,,, ask around and find out who has hurco machines and go talk to them ,,
 
Just out of interest, whats up with the X axis linear rails being longer than the castings? Do they just support the way covers, is it like a homing-only thing, or do you get enough support to actually cut at the travel limit?
 
I think nobody has replied in two days because those three machines, configured the way you describe, are not readily available in the US where most of the PM forum members are.

The Doosan DNM 5700
doosan-dnm-5700.jpg

The YCM NSV 106
NSV-102_%E8%A3%B8-e1461060513391.jpg

The Hurco VMX42i
1___VMX42i-frame-angle.jpg


It's a tough choice. The Hurco and the Doosan use single ballscrew nuts and have weaker axis motors (unless you get the dealers to prove otherwise) which would make the YCM machine the fastest in acceleration and it will not develop backlash for a much longer time than the other two machines. But the Doosan and the Hurco have HSK spindles, which are more rigid at those high RPMs. It might not make a difference if you are profiling with small ball endmills in dual contact holders.

The Hurco has the best control by far, it has two large touch screens with good 3d graphics. I think Hurco makes a ton of money by charging for software features individually so beware of what they offer and what you would have to purchase to make the control worth it. If they have no local support and you crash the machine, you may have to wait months to get a replacement spindle. So check parts availability with Hurco.


Can you tell us what the quotes were for those three machines in India? Last I heard here in the US, the Makino you mention (I'm assuming PS105) costs around $140,000, the Doosan DNM 5700 (CT40, no scales) is ~$90,000, the YCM NSV 102 is ~$135,000, and the Hurco VMX42i (CT40) is ~120,000. Hard to track these numbers given the dealers are inconsistent and nobody lists prices.

When I bought a VMC I went with the Doosan DNM 5700, but my application is large aluminum parts. The Fanuc controller is annoying and it wastes a lot of time; mine doesn't have much look-ahead, although I don't need it for the parts I make. I can tell you that the thermal stability of the machine is pretty good since it has a spindle chiller, I do not have to deal with thermal expansion affecting my part dimensions.

Thanks for your detailed reply. You have spotted the difference correctly about axis motor power & ball screw Nut. Yes, doosan & hurco only offer single nut & have lower power motors for axis controls. In order to take care of backlash with Doosan in long run, can we rely on glass scales & compensations through controller? Secondly, what can be the effect of having higher acceleration with higher power axis motor on the final job? what is the advantage from quality (accuracy & surface finish) point of view?

The prices for makino PS 105 is around 130,000 USD, Doosan DNM is 90,000 USD, YCM NSV 110,000 USD, Hurco 110,000 USD. Prices in India are relatively lower than US. One big factor is that the level of support in India is also much lesser than US. In terms of application support, only Makino has a good support base in India. Doosan does have decent support for service & spares but doesn't have anything for application support. Hurco claims to have both BUT that is to be verified as it is still a new comer in this market.

Controller - Doosan & YCM both are offering fanuc Oi with AICC 2 with 400 look aheads which apparently takes care of 3d Contour. Will that be enough? From the jobs they showcase, it looks good. Fanuc's presence in India is very strong & in case of drive failure we are sure to get good service from them. Hurco being new player in this market , it will be difficult for them to match services offered by fanuc in case of a breakdown.
 
Hi,

We are into die & mould manufacturing for sports application with lot of 3d contouring. We intend to do roughing & finishing on the same machine. The metals we cut are mostly 420 Stainless steel & P20 alloy steel. We do you endmills & ball mills ranging from 30 mm to 1mm.
Although Makino is one of the best choice for us but its too pricey.

The prices for makino PS 105 is around 130,000 USD, Doosan DNM is 90,000 USD, YCM NSV 110,000 USD, Hurco 110,000 USD. Prices in India are relatively lower than US. One big factor is that the level of support in India is also much lesser than US. In terms of application support, only Makino has a good support base in India.

Let's be realistic here. The Makino will easily outperform (destroy) all the others and is barely more expensive.

When looking at machining capability (cycle time and quality) and spindle uptime, the Makino will be the CHEAPEST machine to own over the course of its life. Also if you have a minor crash, the Makino will probably take the hit and keep running, whereas all bets are off with the others.

Glass scales aren't going to be of much use on a C-frame VMC for 3D where your spindle spends most of its life above 10K RPM. Your greatest source of thermal growth, distortion, and deflection is going to be around the Z-axis spindle housing, whereas the Z-axis scale is going to be on the column. Don't bother.
 
Radar87, are you sure about the Makino outperforming everything? I believe the YCM NSV series is more or less a clone of the Makino PS series. The Makino has more continuous spindle power by far, but that isn't needed for most mold making operations unless you're doing huge steel parts.

From my experience with the Doosan DNM 5700, thermal expansion of the spindle and headstock casting is not noticeable during machining. I probe my vises and check my offsets often, and the spindle chiller than comes with the machine seems to prevent growth in both Z and Y. Having coolant through the spindle might also help. I'll start recording my work offsets at different temperatures to see the exact expansion when I get a chance.

Floyd, the glass scales on the Doosan will help maintain tong term accuracy and will prevent thermal growth over the work envelope of the machine. However, they will not eliminate backlash like a double ball nut will.

The YCM machine has 1g acceleration. I believe the Hurco and the Doosan are about 0.3g (this is sort of the "unlisted standard" for 40 taper machines with Fanuc motors). If the machine tool builder does not advertise the acceleration of the machine axes, it is generally safe to assume it isn't that impressive. Having 3x the acceleration will really speed up contouring and reversals in mold work. I think the YCM machine would stay accurate for the longest time and produce molds with the lowest cycle time compared to the Doosan and the Hurco. The Doosan will always have good positioning accuracy because of the glass scales, but will develop witness marks from backlash in reversal. The Hurco has neither so it will perform more like a general purpose/job shop VMC than a mold making machine.

I should mention there is one other brand you may not have heard with a mold machine that combines all of these benefits; the Quaser MV184-M. You can get it with glass scales, it has more than 1g axis acceleration, the spindle does 24,000 RPM, and it built similarly to the other machines. I don't know how much it costs but I got a quote for one of their lrager machines that was an incredible value. Floyd, you may want to contact Quaser if it's an option.

Personally I would go with the Doosan in your situation since it's the cheapest by a significant margin and you know there is at least some local support. I think the YCM or Quaser mold machines will be much faster on long cycles. If you have cheap labor and low overhead costs (you are in India right?) I don't know how strong your incentives are to save on cycle time.
 
Floyd,
I am wondering if you aren't the gentleman that contacted me on LinkedIn. Also, I think some people underestimate the Doosan 5700S. I also work for Doosan and am biased but understand perfectly we are not the only ones with skin in the game. I have ran most major brands out there in my 40 years in the trade. There is a reason we are #3 now, having overtaken DMG/Mori in sales.
Here are the main features of the DNM5700S. Note the double pre-tensioned ball screws. We ran this machine at IMTS and it got a LOT of attention. This is a different variation of the DNM5700 and is designed for mold making and such. The attached picture is what we ran at IMTS on the exact same machine the OP is looking at, except it did not have glass scales.

Main Features
· Fanuc 0i-M Control with USB Port and 10.4" Color LCD Display
· Massive Meehanite cast iron bed
· High precision, direct coupled spindle design with (11 / 18.5 kw \ 15 / 25 hp motor, 15,000 rpm)
· Spindle oil chiller
· Spindle orientation, load meter, override and rigid tapping
· Cam Type, Double Arm ATC (40 tools)
· Large Linear Roller Guides (X - 35 mm \ 1.378", Y - 45 mm \ 1.772", Z - 45 mm \ 1.772")
· Servo motors mounted directly to the oversized, double pre-tensioned ball screws (X - 40 mm \ 1.575", Y - 40 mm \ 1.575", Z - 40 mm \ 1.575")
· Fast rapid traverse rate (X - 42 m/min \ 1,653 ipm, Y - 42 m/min \ 1,653 ipm, Z - 36 m/min \ 1,417 ipm)
· Doosan Smooth Surface Package (SSP). Includes AICC II 200 block look ahead, Jerk Control and Nano Smoothing
· Renishaw probe ready (OMI-2T optical receiver and GUI software only)
· Doosan Tool Load Monitoring and Adaptive Feedrate Control
· Doosan Smart Thermal Monitoring (Software algorithm based thermal compensation system)
20190109_102816.jpg
 
Is this true? That would SERIOUSLY SUCK! So you cannot run it off the flash card like on the older Oi?
So adding the USB has taken away the flash card?

Yes, you can run it off a memory card. Our machines have both but you cannot drip feed off of the USB, only the memory card. And, what a lot of people don't know is that there is a memory card option that will allow you to treat any programs on a memory card as resident in memory. Meaning you have full search and edit capabilities as if it was machine memory. I have formatted cards and tested up to 4 gig partition size. Now, we all know how Fanuc treats us peasants when it comes to options. But this one isn't too bad, coming in under a couple hundred bucks. Actually, the option is standard on the Oi-F's and an option on the Oi-D's. The software to partion a card is a couple hundred dollars.

Paul
 
Yes, you can run it off a memory card. Our machines have both but you cannot drip feed off of the USB, only the memory card. And, what a lot of people don't know is that there is a memory card option that will allow you to treat any programs on a memory card as resident in memory. Meaning you have full search and edit capabilities as if it was machine memory. I have formatted cards and tested up to 4 gig partition size. Now, we all know how Fanuc treats us peasants when it comes to options. But this one isn't too bad, coming in under a couple hundred bucks. Actually, the option is standard on the Oi-F's and an option on the Oi-D's. The software to partion a card is a couple hundred dollars.

Paul

Makes sense, I got worried there a bit that you couldn't run drip feed off a card. So you can't M198 off of the USB? Pretty cool that you can edit at the control off of the card, didn't know that existed. I have used up to 2GB cards on my older Oi MC's without issue. I have never formatted them on the control, well I did try once but it screwed it up.

Any tech savvy guys know why Fanuc's can't drip feed off of a USB? Is the way that it reads not the same as a flash card?
 
Radar87, are you sure about the Makino outperforming everything? I believe the YCM NSV series is more or less a clone of the Makino PS series. The Makino has more continuous spindle power by far, but that isn't needed for most mold making operations unless you're doing huge steel parts.

Yes, I'm sure that a Makino will outperform a YCM.

No contest.
 
Floyd,
I am wondering if you aren't the gentleman that contacted me on LinkedIn. Also, I think some people underestimate the Doosan 5700S. I also work for Doosan and am biased but understand perfectly we are not the only ones with skin in the game. I have ran most major brands out there in my 40 years in the trade. There is a reason we are #3 now, having overtaken DMG/Mori in sales.

The reason is price.

"Jack of all trades, master of none" sums up Doosan pretty well. The Doosan line is expansive, nothing short of impressive, but that's a double edged sword.

The interesting thing is that Doosans actually aren't cheap. It's just that they have cheaper lines like Lynx, made to compete on price. They're good machines for what they are: basic, belt-driven machines with a plain-jane Fanuc 0i control. I'll take one over a Haas ST-20. But to imply that Doosan sales numbers has anything to do with the quality of the machine is disingenuous.

The DNM5700 is a good machine. It's just not a great machine. The Makino is a GREAT machine.
 
The reason is price.

"Jack of all trades, master of none" sums up Doosan pretty well. The Doosan line is expansive, nothing short of impressive, but that's a double edged sword.

The interesting thing is that Doosans actually aren't cheap. It's just that they have cheaper lines like Lynx, made to compete on price. They're good machines for what they are: basic, belt-driven machines with a plain-jane Fanuc 0i control. I'll take one over a Haas ST-20. But to imply that Doosan sales numbers has anything to do with the quality of the machine is disingenuous.

The DNM5700 is a good machine. It's just not a great machine. The Makino is a GREAT machine.

Well, aren't we biased for Makino? LOL. Rightfully so, they are great machines. But, again, you are underestimating us. You put words in my mouth. I never said our machines were "GREAT". They are just very good and we can hold our own. And what's wrong with a plain-jane Fanuc? Do you want a machine that cuts parts or one where you need not worry about the control breaking down? Well, you have your opinion and I came on here to help the OP answer his questions, not to get into a flame war with someone I could give two shits about.
 
What? They don't sell the Okuma 560 in India? It will beat all of those lesser machines like the red headed step children that they are. Puny C frame machines - he needs a double column. Or maybe a Brother...
 
Well, you have your opinion and I came on here to help the OP answer his questions, not to get into a flame war with someone I could give two shits about.

I have no dog in this fight... But that's probably not the best way to represent a multi national company on the largest manufacturing forum on the web...
 
I have no dog in this fight... But that's probably not the best way to represent a multi national company on the largest manufacturing forum on the web...

Yeah, you are right. But I don't care what his opinion of Doosan is. So, your problem is I used a naughty word? And he honestly can't say Doosan sells more machines only on price alone. Again, Doosan is under estimated. I remember the years when ALL Japanese machines were trashed as being crap. The Japanese were copying everybody. Well, people and companies have been copying others since the dawn of time. Remember? No, I doubt if you remember that. Well, they ended up kicking our ass. Now, you have a country that has a level of technology expertise that is starting to surpass even the Japanese. Doosan builds a machine tool without a lot of flash and bang. No fancy controls, just a machine that cuts all day, everyday. The point is to make parts, not ride a control that surfs the internet. We pour our own castings, as well as for others. We control the process from start to finish and ALL machines for the US market are built in Korea. Are we THE BEST machine tool on the market? No. But we sell a lot of machines and if we did not build quality machines that last, we would NOT be selling a lot of machines year in and year out.

Regards,
Paul
 
Returning to the OP's question, which combined with other writings of the OP suggest they're smart enough to buy an Okuma or Makino if the price/risk/return/availability balance worked out, let's return to the relevent bits shall we?

@Floyd29 - do you happen to have lots of other Fanuc controls, and/or CAM software driving posts to make output for Fanuc controls, and similar "fanuc oriented" experience and infrastructure? That *might* be a reason to pick the Doosan or YCM over Hurco. Then again, depending on how you view fanuc, it might be a reason to pick Hurco. Long story short - how the controllers fit with your operations?
[I don't actually own any Fanuc controlled machines....]
 
Yeah, you are right. But I don't care what his opinion of Doosan is. So, your problem is I used a naughty word? And he honestly can't say Doosan sells more machines only on price alone. Again, Doosan is under estimated. I remember the years when ALL Japanese machines were trashed as being crap. The Japanese were copying everybody. Well, people and companies have been copying others since the dawn of time. Remember? No, I doubt if you remember that. Well, they ended up kicking our ass. Now, you have a country that has a level of technology expertise that is starting to surpass even the Japanese. Doosan builds a machine tool without a lot of flash and bang. No fancy controls, just a machine that cuts all day, everyday. The point is to make parts, not ride a control that surfs the internet. We pour our own castings, as well as for others. We control the process from start to finish and ALL machines for the US market are built in Korea. Are we THE BEST machine tool on the market? No. But we sell a lot of machines and if we did not build quality machines that last, we would NOT be selling a lot of machines year in and year out.

Regards,
Paul

Hey man, you don't have to preach to me... I AM Korean...

download.jpg
 








 
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