Hyrdrofluoric nitric acid pickling - Page 4
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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    Why is what I wrote "Bullshit " ?

    Not clear on the point you are trying to make in reference to what I wrote ?

    Or do you mean Claya doesn't care about safety but is more concerned about being "Busted" for something ?

    In France where I used to live it was pretty amazing the chemicals that you could buy (both in a good and bad way) - French law may have changed but seems their view was as private citizen if you bought really dangerous chemicals and accidently killed yourself in their use then that's on you / natural selection.

    Obviously liability is an overarching driver for most of these safety procedures even in small laboratories and Universities - but in the industrial environment I've always been very safety conscious as a lot of industrial accidents are a really shitty ways to die.

    So back to "Mystery alloy/ metal" ?

    So "Acid mix: 20%HF/20%Nitric/60%Diwater"

    And Claya already says he is working with concentrated Nitric and Sulphuric + has the appropriate safety equipment for that,

    So you are saying the 20% HF is going to nix whatever insurance he has when he dies of HF mishandling ? Or that doesn't matter ? (- and that should be his primary concern, like what @JCaroll is saying / advocates - Or are you saying Claya lacks the competence, diligence and resources to handle 20% HF ? Or should be using your friend for all this instead ?

    But you are saying that the alloy he is working with is a far greater liability all together ?

    And because you indicate that you know what metals he is working with in this case ? ~ Because of your friend that does this kind of stuff regularly handles super dangerous metals and therefore Claya must be doing the same ?

    I'm sure you know what you mean as you indicate that you know @Claya ?

    @Snowman are you saying @Claya should or should not attempt or even consider using 20% HF solution for the 1" x 2" specimen (in question) ? Because the alloy or metal is off the charts for toxicity ?

    Sounds like your "Thesis" is he should not even think about it and engage properly with your friend ?

    I'm not sure how old Claya is etc. / circumstances so seems you know or have a better handle on all that ?
    You write more ideas than I care to respond to. My response was to the idea that he is somehow more likely to have an incident as a small operation as opposed to a large operation with millions invested in safety.

    He was asking here how to do it safely, we clearly aren’t the group to be asking. So I referred him to a professional that is capable of not only doing the pickling, but also routinely offers professional consults on such topics.

    I get no impression from him that he’s trying to do it cheaply, only that he’s trying to do it and has hit a dead end finding a professional lab to help him do it.


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  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by -cg View Post
    Zirconium? It's like the third hit in google when you look up Nitric-Hydrofluoric pickling. If so, the paper from 1958 states that the removal of the work-hardened layer is key for corrosion resistance which makes more sense than "organic" contamination.
    So? It hardly answers the question of particular alloy or field of use, all of which is likely protected by nda, up to and including customer name.

    He asked a general question.


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  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowman View Post
    You write more ideas than I care to respond to. My response was to the idea that he is somehow more likely to have an incident as a small operation as opposed to a large operation with millions invested in safety.

    He was asking here how to do it safely, we clearly aren’t the group to be asking. So I referred him to a professional that is capable of not only doing the pickling, but also routinely offers professional consults on such topics.

    I get no impression from him that he’s trying to do it cheaply, only that he’s trying to do it and has hit a dead end finding a professional lab to help him do it.


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    Ok so your friend will and can do @claya's one off 1" x 2" piece ?

    I have to admit that's very nice / kind of your friend to do a one off small piece like that (Thumbs up).



    Quote Originally Posted by snowman View Post

    My response was to the idea that he is somehow more likely to have an incident as a small operation as opposed to a large operation with millions invested in safety.
    I didn't make any reference to small or large operations only to the degree of safety equipment and procedures involved.

    So right now I don't even know if @Claya has a fume cupboard or whether he intends to adopt the "Buddy" system and whether his "Buddy" will have PPE etc. Does he have the right kind of gloves and aprons, does he have access to a chemical shower etc. That's all independent of scale or "size of operation". Will he buy a tube Calcium Gluconate etc. ?

    You don't know if for example @Claya is planning on winging it on a makeshift rig outside ? (for example ) a one minute etch treatment on a 1" x 2" (presumably flat-ish) sample then clean up and neutralization. Maybe once a year less than 250 ml @20% HF mix ?

    Look through the videos posted in post #39 and you will see some of the chemical safety procedures for small labs are pretty thorough. But also compare that to the video of the small business that regularly uses 20% HF to etch bath tubs (commercially) in-situ in people's homes - and flushes the neutral residues away down the "Plug hole" . Much larger quantities than what @Claya is contemplating and for a much shorter etch time.

    I think for example @Rick Finsta's objection is that this type of work does not belong in a typical CNC machine shop or imagined environment even if @Claya has been pickling steels. [I wonder if this thread should have been posted in the "General Section".].

    I've worked in largish facilities (not just labs) where we did have a large chemical shop with larger scale metal finishing chemical processes BUT we eventually paid for the guy running the chemical shop to get a degree and then a master's degree in chemistry so we had someone who theoretically + practically knew what they were doing.

    Every day many garage warriors ARE pickingling / etching various items with HF and not killing themselves...

    BUT in several laboratories and shop floors I've worked at there's always someone that is a bit of "Clutz" who may have a bunch of "Bananas" as fingers that are not very skillful or dexterous or safety conscious and trouble / accidents seem to follow them around.

    __________________________________________________ __________________

    The way I look at it @Claya is grown up, knows his own set up and knows his own capabilities and is able to asses the risk on his own and make a decision accordingly. If he's well prepared the risks of being injured go down substantially. If he just wings it then his chances of getting injured or something "Unexpected" happening go up. That is fact not "Bullshit". - But he'll probably get away with it / be fine as he is cognizant of the risks and what to do to minimize those risks. Unless there are weirder external factors - related to the alloys he is treating.

    But @snowman maybe you know the scale and capabilities of the Claya operation - I don't

    GOOD thing about this is that the guy in the first video I posted post #2 - (Huygen's Optics) who is long time professional chemist and optical specialist WILL be making a youtube video about glass etching - small scale - (maybe before the end of the year). ~ That's kinda my interest in the HF "escapades". ~ And was glad to reach out to Huygen's Optics / Jerome [He's in the Netherlands.]. .

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    Ok so your friend will and can do @claya's one off 1" x 2" piece ?

    I have to admit that's very nice / kind of your friend to do a one off small piece like that (Thumbs up).





    I didn't make any reference to small or large operations only to the degree of safety equipment and procedures involved.

    So right now I don't even know if @Claya has a fume cupboard or whether he intends to adopt the "Buddy" system and whether his "Buddy" will have PPE etc. Does he have the right kind of gloves and aprons, does he have access to a a chemical shower etc. That's all independent of scale or "size of operation". Will he buy a tube Calcium Gluconate etc. ?

    You don't know if for example @Claya is planning on winging it on a makeshift rig outside ?

    Look through the videos posted in post #39 and you will see some of the chemical safety procedures for small labs are pretty thorough.

    I think for example @Rick Finsta's objection is that this type of work does not belong in a typical CNC machine shop or imagined environment even if @Claya has been pickling steels. [I wonder if this thread should have been posted in the "General Section".].

    I've worked in largish facilities (not just labs) where we did have a large chemical shop with larger scale metal finishing chemical processes BUT we eventually paid for the guy running the chemical shop to get a degree and then a master's degree in chemistry so we had someone who theoretically + practically knew what they were doing.

    Every day many garage warriors ARE pickingling / etching various items with HF and not killing themselves...

    BUT in several laboratories and shop floors I've worked at there's always someone that is a bit of "Clutz" who may have a bunch of "Bananas" as finger that are not very skillful or dexterous or safety conscious and trouble / accidents seem to follow them around.

    __________________________________________________ __________________

    The way I look at it @Claya is grown up, knows his own set up and knows his own capabilities and is able to asses the risk on his own and make a decision accordingly. If he's well prepared the risks of being injured go down substantially. If he just wings it then his chances of getting injured or something "Unexpected" happening go up. That is fact not "Bullshit". - But he'll probably get away with it / be fine as he is cognizant of the risks and what to do to minimize those risks. Unless there are weirder external factors - related to the alloys he is treating.

    But @snowman maybe you know the scale and capabilities of the Claya operation - I don't

    GOOD thing about this is that the guy in the first video I posted post #2 - (Huygen's Optics) who is long time professional chemist and optical specialist WILL be making a youtube video about glass etching - small scale - (maybe before the end of the year). ~ That's kinda my interest in the HF "escapades". ~ And was glad to reach out to Huygen's Optics / Jerome [He's in the Netherlands.]. .
    The specialty alloy field is relatively small. Honestly after talking to claya via pm, I’m surprised they don’t already know each other. With its small size, prior simple favor relationships build future work once you establish what their specialty is, etc. I’ve sat through enough brainstorming sessions with my buddy that I recognize it’s not necessarily if it can be done, but do you know who can do it, and if they have the mental bandwidth to take it on.

    If you look at my prior posts, I was not in favor of him learning to run it in house...and if he’s not willing to meet certain minimum standards still would not be. But a lot of chemical work is a matter of finding out what those minimum standards are for your operation. The hard part is usually finding someone qualified to teach you that information...as when it comes to things like piranha, hf/hno3/h2o2, etc....the knowledge is contained within a very small group of people.


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  6. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by snowman View Post
    The specialty alloy field is relatively small. Honestly after talking to claya via pm, I’m surprised they don’t already know each other. With its small size, prior simple favor relationships build future work once you establish what their specialty is, etc. I’ve sat through enough brainstorming sessions with my buddy that I recognize it’s not necessarily if it can be done, but do you know who can do it, and if they have the mental bandwidth to take it on.

    If you look at my prior posts, I was not in favor of him learning to run it in house...and if he’s not willing to meet certain minimum standards still would not be. But a lot of chemical work is a matter of finding out what those minimum standards are for your operation. The hard part is usually finding someone qualified to teach you that information...as when it comes to things like piranha, hf/hno3/h2o2, etc....the knowledge is contained within a very small group of people.


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    I think we are on the same page there...

    Will be interesting to see what Claya decides to do.

    @-CG interesting excavation / detective work Vis a vis ~ Zirconium , and "etchant solution".

    Doesn't seem like a super hideous metal in spite of moderately radio active isotopes and even "Nuclear isomers",

    But that whole series from titanium down (4th column/ "Group 4" of the periodic table is super interesting) -

    Titanium,
    Zirconium,
    Hafnium,
    Rutherfordium,

    + all the applications and different alloys and methods of production - @Robert R. already mentioned the properties of Hafnium / Zirconium with respect to neutron absorption*.

    I didn't want to mention the nuclear connection in California, but seems California has a nuclear problem that will take decades (maybe centuries) to resolve so presumably (like what maybe @Snowman is suggesting) there are organizations and commercial outfits (small or large) in California that handle all that kinds of stuff (in this area) really well already. [Maybe different "rules" apply to those in the nuclear / military sectors versus civilian/ commercial. + environmental regulations of one sort or another.].


    __________________________________________________ ___________________

    * Zirconium - Wikipedia

    ^^^ Obligatory "Wikki" page but at least outlines toxicity and relationship between Zirconium and Hafnium ...


    Does sound like an interesting application @Claya that he provides parts for. Maybe medical (high energy) scanning devices/ applications etc. ? ¯\_ (ツ)_/¯

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    Default HF pickling

    Follow-up:

    Our customer has determined that we don't need to do the Pickling, as it happens regardless by the next vendor as part of their weld prep. A lot of good info in this thread from everyone that contributed. A standard ultrasonic clean is sufficient for our post finish machining process. We also discovered a non HF process (Using Nitric)is available for Pickling our unobtainium too.

    You are now free to talk amoungst yourselves.

    claya

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  9. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by claya View Post
    Follow-up:

    Our customer has determined that we don't need to do the Pickling, as it happens regardless by the next vendor as part of their weld prep. A lot of good info in this thread from everyone that contributed. A standard ultrasonic clean is sufficient for our post finish machining process. We also discovered a non HF process (Using Nitric)is available for Pickling our unobtainium too.

    You are now free to talk amoungst yourselves.

    claya
    I'm glad you found what you needed and also found a sound alternative as well / solution.

    Nice !


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