i-200 Integrex AG (GEAR machine) does anyone know anything about this machine ?

New machine at IMTS 2018

Specialized gear machine. (AG). Seems to have a lot of specialized in process probing (Renishaw "sprint") to make it all hang together.

Tolerances and process management shown in video ** .



Most of it is in Japanese but the "math" and tolerance plots of the gear surfaces seem interesting.

Trying to figure out what is special about the machine versus a regular I-200 but with the same Renishaw probing system?
i.e. can similar parts that are not exactly gears but very gear like can be processed this way ?

Is there anyone at IMTS over this next few days that happens to be standing next to the machine and can bug the hell out of the sales engineers on this one (would be greatly appreciated) just to gain a smidge more clarity... (please and BIG thank you).


Like does it have scales and rotary / ring encoders or improved mechatronics or is it a plan jane I-200 with extra software and Renishaw 3d scan probing cycles ?


Maybe peeps with precision gear making experience or PROBE-ing experience could chime in also just with ANY or ALL opinions ?

Ta,

Eric

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Stumbled across an older white paper MAZAK put out with Renishaw and Dontyne

Closed-loop Gear Machining

** No affiliation but the in process form tolerances (half way through the video are really interesting if you blow the video up full screen on youtube and pause it, you can read the tolerances clearly).

It will certainly be a hardware upgrade for the encoder to allow for more precise of the c axis and spindle. We wanted to do gear skiving on one of our i400 machines but were told we can't with the current encoder so we are looking into retrofitting the required hardware at our factory if possible. Looks like a very impressive machine thats for sure if gear cutting is something you do a lot of. The programming looks very simple for the gear cutting which is great so you can easily write the program on the control.

I see your i200 and raise you Grob G550T
Power skiving | Walzschalen - YouTube

dstryr said:

I see your i200 and raise you Grob G550T
Power skiving | Walzschalen - YouTube

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WOW... Wooooo, woof!

Those edges of the gear on first pass look ridiculously clean, amazing surface finish.

Very impressive.

@dstryr are you at IMTS (seems like everybody is ?).

Turning looks very credible on the Grob*… (Looks very stable and well engineered and the skiving looks flawlessly synchronized).



So "They" Yamazki Mazak "hacked into" the INTEGREX e-1250V/8... Thing but this video mainly shows stuff being done on the I-200 AG "Version".

Another grey/ sable grey machine.

UD-4/5X


I believe the machine is actually grey (not black)… ^^^ [This machine is NOT at IMTS]. (Don't why not but it's not).


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Not that it matters but those gear motifs on the sheet metal (of the AG machines) look like the science museum in London's cafeteria crica 1978... "Ohh it's so cute there he is with his little machine with those cute little gears all over it like a real engineer from the 1860's... How's it going Isambard you know you are supposed to wear a top hat when you operate that machine ! ". I'm gonna take a wild guess that Ken Okuyama was NOT consulted on that lol. CARS | KEN OKUYAMA DESIGN

Nice try but no cigar. Hopefully the actual machine is 'Sound".


So doe the grey sheet metal mean the machine is more accurate or just tricked out in some way ?


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* Some of these 5 axis verticals that do turning (not Grob) more like DMG-Mori I wonder about the basic runout of the C axis spindle and of course lower rpm / spindle speeds... (not easy for smaller parts) so the Integrex has some goodness for longer skinnier parts and accuracte turning + mill turn and obviously complex shaft work and the like.

HDFanboy said:

It will certainly be a hardware upgrade for the encoder to allow for more precise of the c axis and spindle. We wanted to do gear skiving on one of our i400 machines but were told we can't with the current encoder so we are looking into retrofitting the required hardware at our factory if possible. Looks like a very impressive machine thats for sure if gear cutting is something you do a lot of. The programming looks very simple for the gear cutting which is great so you can easily write the program on the control.

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I know Renishaw make some pretty awesome ring encoders (high accuracy and high band width) specifically for these types of applications... We use variants of those in other things. The idea with their stainless ring encoders is that they don't suffer from "Shaft wind up" Problems (like more conventional encoder)and can be mounted on a hub or spindle interface and are low profile... much more low profile than the Heidenhain ring encoders. I don't know if MAZAK is using any of these (pure speculation).


Interesting on the I-200 AG video they show "clean up" finish milling conventionally along the prismatic gear features (along the teeth kind of thing) If you are all ready doing that then ??? What's the point ? (I'm sure there is).


Kinda interesting dove tails to mr PROBE's discussion and assertion that MAZAK ball screws are almost "Trash like" and real ;positional accuracy and accuracy of movement is not so possible cuz they have a entire dedicated factory making bad ball screws.

https://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/cnc-machining/mazak-ball-screws-354572/

(Don't cross the streams... ^^^ the probing don't fix bad ball screws and bad implementation discussion.). However the MAZAK literature / bumf states "Machine compensation" i.e. in process machine compensation.


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So I'm wondering if the I-200 AG and INTEGREX e-1250V/8 and UD 400 5x have better mechatronics than your typical MAZAK … Or is this all pointless as the ball screws are as bad as mr PROBE makes out , or are there super duper ball screws, or is it just mandatory linear scales ? I would have thought that the UD 400 5X would have fine pitch ball screws (at very least).

Yes, direct experience but no time to write about it. I've written about it before, here. Bottom line is that it is not what it's cracked up to be. Not even close. Not by a longshot.

If you want example - have them guarantee the resultant tolerances and Class of the gears produced by it, in writing.

Never could get anyone to do that...

The bottom line is that they're not nearly rigid enough, nor accurate enough. Period. End of story.

Zahnrad Kopf said:

Yes, direct experience but no time to write about it. I've written about it before, here. Bottom line is that it is not what it's cracked up to be. Not even close. Not by a longshot.

If you want example - have them guarantee the resultant tolerances and Class of the gears produced by it, in writing.

Never could get anyone to do that...

The bottom line is that they're not nearly rigid enough, nor accurate enough. Period. End of story.

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LOL I like that... Don't mince your words , tell me what you really think .

I'll dig around data mine some of you writings (Thanks for that) (appreciate it).


We have complex prismatic parts that are gear like that have to interlock or have corresponding pairs/ triplets so accurate mill turn would be ideal (in an abstract way).


On the other hand just say f*ck-it and introduce very careful setups for grinding... Then a smidge of lapping.


That's fine for ferrous alloys but we may have to piss around with aluminum and even some aluminum bronze so there are folks that do specialty aluminum grinding for precision applications but it's such a mess + I'm pretty sure any one that does that day in day out will not escape getting Alzheimer's. Wondering about processes for grinding "Hard coat" (anodized) as used in the semi conductor industry.

@ZK I hear you on rigidity + impact on surface finish.

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@Zahnrad Kopf I would imagine that that would be difficult for MAZAK USA to do... cuz it requires someone that is really "down" with the process and kinda understands the foibles of the underlying mathematics... Not an easy "tweak" in my feeble estimation 'cuz their focus is on matching gear sets rather than random fully interchangeable parts from a series.

Ironically this does get back to the industrial revolution and engineering peeps like Isambard Kindgom Brunel or Telford and James Watt and Newcomb [Early machinists engineers and steam engine builders, As they were able to build pretty accurate and well functioning assemblies as each part is custom fitted to each other, whereas the precisions and tolerances and general production demands for randomly interchangeable parts is far more demanding and the foundation of modern machine production and manufacturing.].


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My impression of the AG method is


1. Gear 1 (lets say male)

2. Gear 2 (female)

3. Compensation of the machine.

So 1, 2 and 3 all have to converge on a common solution (cut probe, cut probe cut probe). So that will mean that the machine can produce (theoretically) a really well matched 1 and 2 but the absolute references of the machine ends up "Moved" to somewhere else, and presumably has to be "re-set" for every new gear set ?

As it's IN MACHINE probing not external inspection.

So the system iterates to produce really well fitting gears (theoretically) that may actually be outside a designated form tolerance.



Is Gauging forbidden in this process ? Or throws it off ?

A machinist could end up fighting the machine on that one and feel like they have no control of anything unless the interface lets you shift everything on mass in an easily understandable way. Hence perhaps why MAZAK stresses that the A in AG stands for 'Auto", i.e. automated i.e. don't mess with it!

I think MAZAK try to pitch the machine as "middle ground" for production needs / made to order.

CyberWorld

^^^ In this magazine that Mazak Japan puts out (in English) they have a features article in the middle of a Japanese gear manufacturer using a tricked out integrex (like a J-200) ? Issue 54 of mazak's 'Cyberworld". I think they specialize in cast iron gears which are fragile and chip easily.

Thread bumpity


Did anyone see this machine in action at IMTS ?

i-200 Integrex AG (GEAR machine)

cameraman said:

Thread bumpity
Did anyone see this machine in action at IMTS ?
i-200 Integrex AG (GEAR machine)

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Yep. Sure did! I don't care if it makes me petty. I simply could not resist the urge to make the salesmen uncomfortable, and scramble. To be perfectly honest, there is some manner of professional interest in seeing them be successful in that I would honestly consider purchasing one at some later point. But we are not there yet, ( as a company ) and they're certainly not there yet, as providers.

Short story? Nothing has changed. When put to the test and feet held to the fire, they cannot ( and will not ) guarantee better than commodity level quality. They have learned to make the parts sexier. Does that count?

The Herringbone gears are awesome, until you look at them. Nothing like using a CAM contouring tool path to flank the teeth. Maybe someone will eventually point out to them that if they decide to do so, that they should at least reduce the step-over so that they don't come out so obscenely faceted... It's a bit pathetic, really.

They did manage a somewhat passable Worm, though! Of course, we won't bring up the fact that it's basically just a thread...

So... yeah ... I guess not much has changed.

In the interest of fairness, I put every MTB through the same paces during the show. We are actively shopping a machine in the class and they all look at the name and the shirts, and immediately launch into their gear spiel. So, I tell them to guarantee the results in writing. And, this is where the conversation always takes a sudden and decidedly evasive turn...

What? What'd I say?

Zahnrad Kopf said:

Yep. Sure did! I don't care if it makes me petty. I simply could not resist the urge to make the salesmen uncomfortable, and scramble. To be perfectly honest, there is some manner of professional interest in seeing them be successful in that I would honestly consider purchasing one at some later point. But we are not there yet, ( as a company ) and they're certainly not there yet, as providers.

Short story? Nothing has changed. When put to the test and feet held to the fire, they cannot ( and will not ) guarantee better than commodity level quality. They have learned to make the parts sexier. Does that count?

The Herringbone gears are awesome, until you look at them. Nothing like using a CAM contouring tool path to flank the teeth. Maybe someone will eventually point out to them that if they decide to do so, that they should at least reduce the step-over so that they don't come out so obscenely faceted... It's a bit pathetic, really.

They did manage a somewhat passable Worm, though! Of course, we won't bring up the fact that it's basically just a thread...

So... yeah ... I guess not much has changed.

In the interest of fairness, I put every MTB through the same paces during the show. We are actively shopping a machine in the class and they all look at the name and the shirts, and immediately launch into their gear spiel. So, I tell them to guarantee the results in writing. And, this is where the conversation always takes a sudden and decidedly evasive turn...

What? What'd I say?

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This is the kind of information that is useful to me. This is great (typical of them, but good info). Than you Zahnrad!!!

Plus, it's important to make sure Salesmen stay that way, keep them in their place. It's the worst when Salesmen start thinking they are Human beings. (let alone when they think they are like Us).

R

cameraman said:

Kinda interesting dove tails to mr PROBE's discussion and assertion that MAZAK ball screws are almost "Trash like" and real ;positional accuracy and accuracy of movement is not so possible cuz they have a entire dedicated factory making bad ball screws.

https://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/cnc-machining/mazak-ball-screws-354572/

(Don't cross the streams... ^^^ the probing don't fix bad ball screws and bad implementation discussion.). However the MAZAK literature / bumf states "Machine compensation" i.e. in process machine compensation.

Click to expand...

What PROBE actually said was

PROBE said:

I was told, that MAZAK uses its own ballscrews, generally low quality (no specific grade was given), and pitch error compensation assures the requested accuracy.

Click to expand...

When he wrote that I wondered how far this likely MISINFORMATION (imho) would likely be propageted, it didn't take long, now their "Trash like".

Zahnrad Kopf said:

Yep. Sure did! I don't care if it makes me petty. I simply could not resist the urge to make the salesmen uncomfortable, and scramble. To be perfectly honest, there is some manner of professional interest in seeing them be successful in that I would honestly consider purchasing one at some later point. But we are not there yet, ( as a company ) and they're certainly not there yet, as providers.

Short story? Nothing has changed. When put to the test and feet held to the fire, they cannot ( and will not ) guarantee better than commodity level quality. They have learned to make the parts sexier. Does that count?

The Herringbone gears are awesome, until you look at them. Nothing like using a CAM contouring tool path to flank the teeth. Maybe someone will eventually point out to them that if they decide to do so, that they should at least reduce the step-over so that they don't come out so obscenely faceted... It's a bit pathetic, really.

They did manage a somewhat passable Worm, though! Of course, we won't bring up the fact that it's basically just a thread...

So... yeah ... I guess not much has changed.

In the interest of fairness, I put every MTB through the same paces during the show. We are actively shopping a machine in the class and they all look at the name and the shirts, and immediately launch into their gear spiel. So, I tell them to guarantee the results in writing. And, this is where the conversation always takes a sudden and decidedly evasive turn...

What? What'd I say?

Click to expand...

Seems we come at things from a very similar angle and +1 on EVERYTHING in writing.


I'm not in for this "Ohhh come in and show us your parts"... ('cuz they don't even ask if we are even allowed to show them our parts (one boundary crossed)), Like a 1/2 hour BS session on a conference table stroking the client's d*cks is going to solve a tough application scenario when the head sales person could not tell you how many arc seconds are in a degree or what surface finishes are achievable on different machines with certain tooling combinations and materials… It's NOT about "Part shape" it's about deeper techniques and key critical surface and yet somehow be "productive" for scaling when you get slammed with orders + the 3, 5 and seven year development plan... Like all that sh*t is going to be figured out in 1/2 an hour of hand waving... (mini rant).


Hence everything important has to be inwriting and there HAS to be a paper trail for that as well as a purposeful logical progression to close in on the application.


I'm just interested in a more accurate set of processes for Mill turn, like better in process probing / gauging and scales on all axes.

In an abstract way the integrex I-200 is lot more accurate than what one might suppose but does require a lot of hands on in process gauging of refence surfaces etc. to do high accuracy work... It's not set and forget and magic high tolerance parts "plop" out the other end.. AND also wondering if such processes from pretty hands on work can actually be automated ? Or does that completely NUKE and ideas of future scaling in terms of automation and is hence a "Doomed" idea. Break it all down in a different way... But I-200 good for prototyping and mild production for high mix low volume. I-200 does look very expensive to automate.


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Dreaming out loud... If "they" had something between I-200 and 1-100 (the I-150 is a different beast) and had GRINDING operations that you could do (as finish passes on hardened materials) + rotary ring encoders for direct scale feedback + the convergent probe and machine compensation (real time)(rather than indirect angular measurement) then I think could be pretty damn awesome "Imaginary" machine(at least for us). Almost Mold machine accuracy and stability but accurate turning and grinding platform that can handle complex parts and do real shaft work...

triumph406 said:

What PROBE actually said was



When he wrote that I wondered how far this likely MISINFORMATION (imho) would likely be propageted, it didn't take long, now their "Trash like".

Click to expand...

That's spoken with genuine sarcasm.

The thrust is how on earth is it that MAZAK has a dedicated plant to make 'BAD" ball screws? When I wrote that I had a feeling that would go over some people's head but I figured I'd leave that out there to get to the bottom of things as well.

As they say "Truth will out"... eventually .


My point is that ball screws are not that accurate to being with... it's the repeatability that's key so PROBE made a couple of valid points though if you read very carefully what he says … Will dig up specific quote.


AND right now I'm looking at machines that have fine pitch ball screws like machines from OKK, Kitamura and Makino... There IS a difference IMO.


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Let me grab the right crumb.

triumph406 said:

What PROBE actually said was



When he wrote that I wondered how far this likely MISINFORMATION (imho) would likely be propageted, it didn't take long, now their "Trash like".

Click to expand...

Word of caution here by removing the context of that quote you are kinda making a reframe of a reframe here; but I'm certainly glad you brought it up. I'm kinda a fan of MAZAK -ish / positive but at the same time being a "Fan" doesn't solve the application and process design.

As the thrust and purpose of PROBE'S argument is VERY clear.

PROBE said:

I was told, that MAZAK uses its own ballscrews, generally low quality (no specific grade was given), and pitch error compensation assures the requested accuracy.
I personally performed over 1000 pitch error compensation processes, and learned that the problem of low quality ballscrews is that except from overall inaccuracy the error is not linear. It means that along part of the screw its error is negative, and along other part positive. This fenomena fluctuates along the screw. As the nut is quite short comparing to the screw, the backlash fluctuates too. The backlash compensation amount, set before the pitch error compensation process is therefore not effective along whole length of the screw, and the results are clearly seen in parts produced.
I believe that there is no way to produce accurate machine using low quality ballscrews.

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^^^ This is what he actually wrote and I respect PROBE a great deal but at the same time I know the Integrex is an accurate machine but is accurate for turning and making straight cuts... but PORBE'S point is that positionally (which is different from straightness and roundness) requires a closer look hence his enquiry in the first place.

PROBE states:

PROBE said:

I was told, that MAZAK uses its own ballscrews, generally low quality (no specific grade was given), and pitch error compensation assures the requested accuracy.

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That's one statement... ^^^

PROBE said:

I personally performed over 1000 pitch error compensation processes, and learned that the problem of low quality ballscrews is that except from overall inaccuracy the error is not linear.

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Here he's linking (Mazak uses low quality ball screws to generally what happens when you use low quality ball screws).

PROBE said:

It means that along part of the screw its error is negative, and along other part positive. This fenomena fluctuates along the screw. As the nut is quite short comparing to the screw, the backlash fluctuates too.

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^^^ technical detail and elaboration...

PROBE said:

The backlash compensation amount, set before the pitch error compensation process

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^^^ KEY TECHNICAL POINT he is making here... backlash compensation set before the pitch error compensation process...

PROBE said:

is therefore not effective along whole length of the screw, and the results are clearly seen in parts produced.

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^^^ Assertion of consequence thereof... by practical experience. (he may or may not be right but maybe the AG platform fixes all of that and those issues RIGHT (assuming his 1000 field observations and practical metrological experience are correct ?)). My take away is that there is something to be mindful of or take a closer look at. Warrants closer scrutiny, we are not sheeple therefore this is not FUD nor is it coming from someone that is reporting falsehoods, but the source of the issue may be more complex... Never the less I listen and remember the info he has presented as potentially useful data from field experience. My read on PROBE's "tone" is one of useful and friendly caution (like a brother) not one of needlessly competitive FUD nor personally motivated axe grinding. He is not seeking to be expressly manipulative.

PROBE said:

I believe that there is no way to produce accurate machine using low quality ballscrews.

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^^^ I would concur … as That is the corner stone of our business too...

However given that real metrological data for these machines is hard to come buy we are expected to bet the farm on unknown parameters and blind faith for such a machine and platform ? [I personally believe the integrex is a good platform but tolerances and application key surfaces are paramount.]. So professional gear makers might raise an eyebrow... On the other hand for my work maybe I-200 with a-bit of extra probing fits out tolerance band and application needs.

Long story short maybe the AG series fixed the kind of stuff we are bitch'n about...


So if that machine has scales, and better ball screws and more sophisticated in process probing could be an INDEAL fit for what we need... Even though my little ship is not supplying gears to the world, but needs such capabilities for our in house development work and products.

BUT with ZERO information from MAZAK it's completely impossible to make any useful call or decision at all.

wastes a LOT of time.

litlerob1 said:

This is the kind of information that is useful to me. This is great (typical of them, but good info). Than you Zahnrad!!!
Plus, it's important to make sure Salesmen stay that way, keep them in their place. It's the worst when Salesmen start thinking they are Human beings. (let alone when they think they are like Us).
R

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Happy to be of service, R.

cameraman said:

Dreaming out loud... If "they" had something between I-200 and 1-100 (the I-150 is a different beast) and had GRINDING operations that you could do (as finish passes on hardened materials) + rotary ring encoders for direct scale feedback + the convergent probe and machine compensation (real time)(rather than indirect angular measurement) then I think could be pretty damn awesome "Imaginary" machine(at least for us). Almost Mold machine accuracy and stability but accurate turning and grinding platform that can handle complex parts and do real shaft work...

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Actually, they _do_ exist. But, again... we are now firmly in specialized and dedicated Gear Making machinery land. They're also more pricey than Integrexes. There were even a few examples at the show. Just beautiful, really. They got me man parts wiggly more than a few times.

cameraman said:

BUT with ZERO information from MAZAK it's completely impossible to make any useful call or decision at all.
wastes a LOT of time.

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If this helps, they are all basically similarly capable. They can put out AGMA 6-7 fairly capably with Hobs. They are NOT fast about it. The Mazaks are particularly handicapped for not using the WTO or Eppinger heads, leaving the Hob unsupported on the end. Not really a good thing for Hobbing. If I can say anything complimentary, it's that they are trying hard and succeeding at making the choices a matter of menu driven ones, that dumb the process down so far that even completely gear ignorant users can "make" a "gear". ( both of those words being very loosely used, in this context )

Another thing potential users need to realize is that they are still relying heavily upon expensive tooling to accomplish even mediocre results. So, in the end, one is better served MUCH more with actual, gear making machines and tooling.

My two pfennig.

Zahnrad Kopf said:

Happy to be of service, R.



Actually, they _do_ exist. But, again... we are now firmly in specialized and dedicated Gear Making machinery land. They're also more pricey than Integrexes. There were even a few examples at the show. Just beautiful, really. They got me man parts wiggly more than a few times.

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Exactly … That's the key point IMO the integrex is excellent value for certain types of processes that would easily cost $150K more (or way more) if you break an application down between two , three or four machines and can incur two to four times the number of set ups... In our case maybe 6X the number of set ups.

And me too; some of those crazy accurate capable machines get my man-parts wiggly too...

Sometimes it IS better to listen to your d*ck! *
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I'm trying to avoid a scenario where because of budget constraints we are forced to buy trash CNC machines + rudimentary grinding equipment @ $150 to $200K extra just to close the gap on things... Hoping to go from better quality CNC straight to lapping and avoid grinding and other tedious operations.

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* that's dick not duck.

Zahnrad Kopf said:

If this helps, they are all basically similarly capable. They can put out AGMA 6-7 fairly capably with Hobs. They are NOT fast about it. The Mazaks are particularly handicapped for not using the WTO or Eppinger heads, leaving the Hob unsupported on the end. Not really a good thing for Hobbing. If I can say anything complimentary, it's that they are trying hard and succeeding at making the choices a matter of menu driven ones, that dumb the process down so far that even completely gear ignorant users can "make" a "gear". ( both of those words being very loosely used, in this context )

Another thing potential users need to realize is that they are still relying heavily upon expensive tooling to accomplish even mediocre results. So, in the end, one is better served MUCH more with actual, gear making machines and tooling.

My two pfennig.

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I think that's a fair comment... Our processes are SLOW just 'cuz we are building stuff and few tricky hands on really accurate surfaces that can only be done in a hands on way so I'm not looking for crazy efficiency and production rates.


I think on some Integrex configurations I have seen where they use the lower turret with a kind of live center that points upwards to engage the other end of the hobb for extra rigidity.

If I go ALL in on the Integrex way of doing things I'm gonna try to keep or make my life a simple as possible so ONE turning spindle, tailstock and removable steady rest... ( that can get sometimes in the way). I don't have a lot of faith that these ultra blinged out all singing and all dancing integrexes that maybe are not so easy to make "Go right" outside of JAPAN. That's why I also stay away from the lower turret "thing"; try to as be conservative and realistic as possible.



I completely agree that dedicated gear machines are impossible to beat, but I think MAZAK in their cursory bumpf kinda argue for this weird middle space of application that I can't quite explain very well... But agree on the no-brainer interface for folks that want the machine to make some kind of gears...

The bigger integrex machine may be a different story 5 axis trunnion machine + turning (shrugging shoulders).

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@Zahnrad Ich denke, dass zwei Pfennige gut ausgegeben sind !

vielen Dank !

Maybe I DO hunt down one of these ancient oil streaming gear machines...

Hmmmm…

Gear machine + wire EDM + grinding …

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Interex can do a bit of shaping and broaching ? No... ?