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  1. #41
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    I don't know what the max torque an ER16 can handle. Varies with shank size, shank material. Sounds like a programming error since the "m19" was not included. If not synched properly any collet system will slip and or break the shank. I use M8 and M10 taps in ER16 all the time in 8620 steel because I have to get into a c'bore. Never had any issues. Standard round collet.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CosmosK View Post
    I thought they were good down 1mm from nominal? Yes, 6.5mm shank, 7.0mm "regular" collet. I tighten them down pretty good although I don't have a torque wrench adaptor yet.


    (TAP M6)
    G54
    G100 T76 X75.806 Y-6.245 G43 Z42.368 H76 D76 S2000 M03

    G17
    G00 X75.806 Y-6.245
    G00 Z42.368
    G00 Z32.368
    G77 X75.806 Y-6.245 Z10.000 R24.969 I1.0 S2000
    G77 X75.806 Y-6.245 Z5.000 R24.969 I1.0 S2000
    G77 X75.806 Y-6.245 Z0.969 R24.969 I1.0 S2000
    G80
    G00 Z42.368

    Z zero is below the part. The hole starts at Z 19.6. Measuring where the broken tap tip is lodged, it comes out to be at Z10.6 (not clear which pass it was on), so the tap is about 10.0 into the hole.

    Attachment 215750

    edit: I took the tap out. I think I left about 0.5 uncoated shank sticking out, but I couldn't see any uncoated before removal. I marked it then took it out, and it's right at the line. So, some weak evidence it may have slipped maybe.


    Also, here's what I'm talking about with shank length. These Widia ones are short. Here's next to the m6 hand tap and the Widia M8 which has not made its maiden voyage yet (can't wait)

    Attachment 215751
    If that's a TiN coated tap, it's not (IMO) a good choice for Al. I think TiN has more issues with aluminum welding itself to the coating, increasing friction and lowering accuracy. Also, that style of spiral flute tap is inherently weak and will break easier than most other tap styles.

    Look into form tapping, or another coating, or perhaps a small increase in drill size prior to threading. Form taps do require very tight control of the hole size, so drilling, then reaming is recommended. As is making sure your coolant is on the rich side for lubricity.

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  4. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Milland View Post
    If that's a TiN coated tap, it's not (IMO) a good choice for Al. I think TiN has more issues with aluminum welding itself to the coating, increasing friction and lowering accuracy. Also, that style of spiral flute tap is inherently weak and will break easier than most other tap styles.

    Look into form tapping, or another coating, or perhaps a small increase in drill size prior to threading. Form taps do require very tight control of the hole size, so drilling, then reaming is recommended. As is making sure your coolant is on the rich side for lubricity.
    Frank, my local Yamazen apps guys does not think the M19 was needed, but he is checking with Brother.

    Yeah, I hand tapped some holes with one of these taps and it seemed like more resistance. I'm returning the ones I have unused and ordering OSG uncoated and some tap collets.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobw View Post
    Did an assembly job a bit back. The bolts had to be torqued 2.6 to 3.4 ft*lbs.. I wasn't torqueing
    1700 bolts by hand so I started playing with the cordless drills.. Turns out the highest clutch
    setting on the Dewalts is about 3 ftlbs..

    Anyways.. So now I know what torque the clutch goes off at on the cordless drills.. When I tap with
    the cordless drills, I use the clutch. A 1/4-20 can easily be driven into mild steel with the clutch
    around 10 or 11 (max of 17).. A 3/8 fine will go into stainless without setting the clutch off..

    So....... If your ER16 can't resist 3 ft/lbs of torque, you've got a problem.

    That was a little long winded (can you tell I've got a job to do that I DO NOT want to do??)
    But it really takes very little torque to drive a modest size tap.

    What is the max torque that an ER16 is able to handle??? Frank??
    6mm hardened shaft on ER16 collet: 30 to 35Nm or 22 to 25 ftlb before slipping.
    http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb...8/#post3058878

    ER16 torqued to max recommendation should be able to handle anything in M6 and M8 sizes.
    M12 with 9mm shank is asking for a trouble in ER16 chuck for anything tougher(IE forming tap on 4340PH).
    Probably good still for ordinary structural steel and cut tap.

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    [QUOTE=MattiJ;3092038]6mm hardened shaft on ER16 collet: 30 to 35Nm or 22 to 25 ftlb

    Was that a 6mm shaft in a 6mm collet?

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    Well, Brother says yes there possibly could be a misalignment without the M19. But, I'm not going to try it again with the proper code (I really wish machine makers would be responsible for post processors for common CAM platforms). I'm getting tap collets and new uncoated OSG taps. I understood TIALN was a no-go in AL, but I didn't know TIN wasn't ok.

    I'll give Frank the benefit of the doubt as I love his products and my choice of setup wasn't ideal[edit: I'm really having a hard time thinking this is at all the collets fault]. I can't say for sure I had 30 ft-lbf with the little 8" wrench and honestly I don't think his 7mm ER16 collet is any different than any other brand in this situation.

    I wish Maritool made tap collets, but I need them soon, so I'm seeing Parlec. (Techniks collets guy on the phone was a doofus and their M6 shank is 6.0 which is odd)

    So, retire the pull stud? I'm thinking yes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CosmosK View Post
    So, retire the pull stud? I'm thinking yes.
    If it was just the tap failure that concerns you, there's likely no damage to the stud. If it's an old one, and has seen a lot of side milling too, then it won't hurt to replace it.

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    [QUOTE=BROTHERFRANK;3092049]
    Quote Originally Posted by MattiJ View Post
    6mm hardened shaft on ER16 collet: 30 to 35Nm or 22 to 25 ftlb

    Was that a 6mm shaft in a 6mm collet?
    yeah, as I didn’t have neither collets or hardened shaft in fractional sizes. Could test 7mm collet on 6mm shaft but that is pushing luck..

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    Quote Originally Posted by fmari --MariTool- View Post
    I used to make this HAAS retention knob years back. Used hundreds back in my old job before MariTool. Never had any failures. Started selling it on MariTool and everyone complained about it. " looks different", " will it hurt my spindle", " I want the normal stud". I pulled it from the website. I will admit I did have pictures and a brief description about the " high strength feature" but it was not labeled as such. So I think lots of cutsomers were caught by surprise. In the future I may bring it back but also have the standard available so people can pick.
    If you start making pull studs like that for Brother, I'll buy 5+ of them when my Speedio arrives next year to run on all my roughers and heavy hitting tools. And I'll put them on repeat in Asana to buy new ones and swap them out every 12 months.

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    I have a customer/friend with a Brother machine just a mile away. I will do some testing after the holidays.

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    I dont know how long you been doing this but before my times the saying was you can cut AL with any broken dick tool.
    hmmm it maybe translated from broken Polish but still stands valid after 30 something years ago. LOL

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaszub View Post
    I dont know how long you been doing this but before my times the saying was you can cut AL with any broken dick tool.
    hmmm it maybe translated from broken Polish but still stands valid after 30 something years ago. LOL
    Old [Inset country here] proverb: "Man who cuts with broken dick tool soon finds he has broken stud too."

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    Well they found a crack in the taper. They offered to chrome plate it but I don't see that lasting long. Your thoughts?

    Frank. I didn't forget about you will reach out next week to get you that knob. I had to pull the spindle to get the top of the knob out and I waited to pull it till I found someone that could do bt30's. Sorry for that delay.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Houndogforever View Post
    It must be the month. After 14 months, I too took out my speedio spindle. Face milling some aluminum when the part was undersized and the part pulled up out of the vise and jammed in. Lifted part about 1/4", broke an insert, broke the pull stud, buggered the hell out of my spindle taper.

    Had it reground in place. It isn't 100% any more. It works but it's sound changed a bit. I just received my replacement spindle from Yamazen but I am going to just set that gem on the shelf and see how long this original works out.
    I just had a holder pull out of the spindle on my older Brother machine as well and it did a number on the taper, unfortunately I think the spindles for my S2B-O are more expensive than the new Speedio, so I'm hoping to have it reground and get a bit more life out of it. Who did you have fix your taper? I am debating having someone do it in the machine vs. disassembly and sending it out.
    spindle-taper.jpg
    Last edited by LostFab; 02-24-2018 at 09:24 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LostFab View Post
    I just had a holder pull out of the spindle on my older Brother machine as well and it did a number on the taper, unfortunately I think the spindles for my S2B-O are more expensive than the new Speedio, so I'm hoping to have it reground and get a bit more life out of it. Who did you have fix your taper? I am debating having someone do it in the machine vs. disassembly and sending it out.
    I have had tapers reground by C&M in Portland. I arranged it so I could drop it off in the morning and take it home later that day, for $300. One question I have about them is I don't know if they have a 30 taper gage to test the taper with. The times they worked on my spindles they wanted me to supply a toolholder to test the taper with.

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    Thanks for the recommendation!

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    I am going to replace my spindle here in a few weeks- S2A-O 10k rpm is $2700. Seems like a good deal to me for a whole new spindle assy. Mine has had a long life and has quite a bit of runout now.
    Last edited by Pete Deal; 02-25-2018 at 11:20 AM.

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    $3,650 for a new 10K ($5,380 for 16k) from Yamazen, and C&M quoted $400-600 to send it for regrind. Running it without a tool doesnt seem to sound any different so I'll give the regrind a shot since the spindle was supposedly relatively new when we got the machine.

    Does anyone have instructions for removing those spindles, I've seen it mentioned several times over the years that they "only take an hour" to replace, but no actual instruction of how to remove and replace it, and I don't have any sort of maintenance manual.

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    That looks beyond a regrind, at least anything C&M will do, in my direct experience. You would have to get the taper chromed, then reground, only to still find out that part of the taper does not support the tool holder, again in my direct experience. Been there, done that, bummed in the end.

    C&M can grind the high spots out of the way but do not expect that section of the taper to support the tool holder ever again.

    More edits: I would expect Yamazen could email you some PDF instructions on removing and installing the spindle. They will include orienting the rotation for the tool changer as well.
    Last edited by DavidScott; 02-27-2018 at 02:08 PM.

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    Funny...kinda in a not really way.

    I read this post last night from beginning to end. Thought to myself, I have never even seen a broken Pull Stud before...never mind had one. But maybe time to think about replacing them anyway. I put that thought on the backburner and went back to work.

    This morning my man comes into office with a CAT40 holder with a broken Pull Stud. Laugh to myself knowing full well I brought this upon myself last night saying ...Huh, never even saw one broken before. While I do not believe in fate...I have a strong feeling against temping it, I temped it.
    Luckily no damage aside from broken inserts and a small nick in tool holder.

    Guess I'll be buying a bunch of new Pull Studs to start changing out the old ones.


    FYI- Broken Stud was not a Mari Stud, I looked...just in case anyone is thinking that.
    But pretty sure the new ones will be.

    As has been told only so many cylces these things can do, stud is from 2013. I have many older.


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