Indexable Drill Recomendations
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  1. #1
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    Default Indexable Drill Recomendations

    Looking for a better indexable drill than what we currently are using (Allied/AMEC T/A Style). We don't have any thru coolant machines. We have been using this same style since the 90's. We have good success with them in the mills but it seems like we are destroying inserts & holders whenever we drill in the lathes. Most common is the insert grabbing and then twisting the holder shank. I am sure its 95% operator error with the speeds & feeds, likely driving it to hard but just looking to see what everyone else is having success with. We mostly drill Carbon Steel, 4140HT, 410HT & Inconels. Machines are all Haas & SMEC.

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    Are you doing hundreds of holes or millions?
    Do you want to go fast or last long between indexes?
    What diameter and how deep?

    Just trying not to drink from the firehose.

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    Job shop, small runs, multiple sizes 1-2Ē mostly. The T/A spade drill inserts we currently use have a pretty good range of insert sizes for each holder which is nice, but I donít think Iím going to find that with the indexable drills Iíve been looking at (techniks kennametal ultra-dex).


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    I'd like to see the answers that come here too. My applications are about the same. What I have seen is that it's tough to justify the cost of most other drills in this type application because they are generally limited to one size and are often more expensive. Which is why I have been using the T/A drills too.

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    In the material you mention, I like KMetal DFT drill bodies. They take a lot of abuse. You can offset the Holder to generate a bigger hole, percentage of the Drill's basic diameter.

    Sandwich's 880 is a very, very good Drill. Very popular.

    I also really like Iscar's Drills with the tiny square inserts. You can use them as a Rough boring bar too.

    R

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    Our shop just started using an Allied indexable drill and they are the cats meow, that's coming from someone who really never cared for other drills of theirs that I've tried. We were using Sandvik 880's and they're not even close to worth the extra money in comparison to the Allied.

    We run mostly 4140, 4340, probably have ten thousand holes of varying lengths since we got it over six months ago on the same drill which looks brand new and we just replaced the free box of inserts we got with it!

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    Which style allied drill? APX? Iím assuming your not talking about the allied spade drills.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Micmac1 View Post
    Job shop, small runs, multiple sizes 1-2Ē mostly. The T/A spade drill inserts we currently use have a pretty good range of insert sizes for each holder which is nice, but I donít think Iím going to find that with the indexable drills Iíve been looking at (techniks kennametal ultra-dex).


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    Forget about Kennametal. Specifically their new KTFS drill. I bought one last year for a big job and it was nothing but trouble. Replaced it with a Sandvik 870 and couldnt be happier with it. Night and day difference in speed, tool life, reliability, Z axis load, the list goes on and on.

    I also run the old school allied spade drills and like them. I also like how 3-4 holders covers such a huge range. Chips can be stringy sometimes. I kinda feel the inserts should be cheaper since they are not even carbide, but they do seem to work well though I have to say. I run around 200 SFM and 0.010 IPR in mild steel.

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    Kennametal DFT here- they are a Hertel design going back about 20 years at least and were commonly sold under the Cleveland Twist Drill brand before Kennametal bought Hertel. But ya gotta run coolant thru the drill to flush the chips- even if you jury rig a separate coolant hose to the drill body. We use them all the way from 5/8" up to almost 2" in HT4140 and lots of 8620.

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    I run a 32mm iscar drill, it has a carbide head that can plow through 4340 pre hard. I run around 4-5 hundred rpm at 0.008 thou/rev. The machine is a haas sl30. I have run a 3 1/4 allied spade drill, but the machine is under powered to plow a drill that big so i have to run a regular drill cycle.

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    I'm surprised no one's chimed in with the obvious idea that you ought to try and fix the operator error first before investing in any shiny new toys.

    Allied makes really nice indexable lines, no question about it. I've never tried the TA line on a lathe though. Seems like it could be borrowing some trouble.

    In a former shop we used to use two different indexables for lathe work: SECO Perfomax and Mitsubishi MVX. The Perfomax tools were really expensive, so pretty much just got whatever we could find out of the reps trunk stock and put them to use where we could. From a performance standpoint those drills were probably the best.

    Value wise, hard to top the MVX. Mitsubishi has what seems to be an everlasting promo going with that line - buy twenty inserts get the body for "free". They won't blow you away with their performance or anything like that but if you run them right they'll last forever. The size selection is pretty massive also, never had trouble finding a L/D configuration that wouldn't suit our needs.

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    Nothing to do with your question, but if you can somehow add thru coolant it would help greatly. I am surprised you cannot somehow plumb an external line to your drills. Really worth the trouble.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dodgin View Post
    I'm surprised no one's chimed in with the obvious idea that you ought to try and fix the operator error first before investing in any shiny new toys.

    Allied makes really nice indexable lines, no question about it. I've never tried the TA line on a lathe though. Seems like it could be borrowing some trouble.

    In a former shop we used to use two different indexables for lathe work: SECO Perfomax and Mitsubishi MVX. The Perfomax tools were really expensive, so pretty much just got whatever we could find out of the reps trunk stock and put them to use where we could. From a performance standpoint those drills were probably the best.

    Value wise, hard to top the MVX. Mitsubishi has what seems to be an everlasting promo going with that line - buy twenty inserts get the body for "free". They won't blow you away with their performance or anything like that but if you run them right they'll last forever. The size selection is pretty massive also, never had trouble finding a L/D configuration that wouldn't suit our needs.
    Like I said we have pretty good results with the allied spade inserts in the mill. I like them for lathe work because the have multiple insert sizes for one holder but we have to run them so slow in some of the materials itís painful to watch, a lot has to do with not having a carbide option. Because we donít have thru coolant the chips load up. Ive tried a peck cycle with the T/A to evacuate chips, but we burn out the insert fast doing that. I do think they are a good drill but I just want to see whatís out there for carbide options.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Micmac1 View Post
    Like I said we have pretty good results with the allied spade inserts in the mill. I like them for lathe work because the have multiple insert sizes for one holder but we have to run them so slow in some of the materials it’s painful to watch, a lot has to do with not having a carbide option. Because we don’t have thru coolant the chips load up. Ive tried a peck cycle with the T/A to evacuate chips, but we burn out the insert fast doing that. I do think they are a good drill but I just want to see what’s out there for carbide options.


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    I'd ditch the spade drills in a heartbeat - although modern indexables are more expensive, they are massively faster so the cost is recouped very quickly.

    I'll give another vote for Sandvik 880. They are the best in the materials you're working with, although a few will claim otherwise. They are probably the most expensive.

    A close runner are Tungaloy TDS.

    Also, I'm confused how you can't run through coolant in your lathes? It's basically a freebie in the lathe as the coolant is right there at the toolblock.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gregormarwick View Post
    I'd ditch the spade drills in a heartbeat - although modern indexables are more expensive, they are massively faster so the cost is recouped very quickly.

    I'll give another vote for Sandvik 880. They are the best in the materials you're working with, although a few will claim otherwise. They are probably the most expensive.

    A close runner are Tungaloy TDS.

    Also, I'm confused how you can't run through coolant in your lathes? It's basically a freebie in the lathe as the coolant is right there at the toolblock.
    We can run thru coolant but we are constantly changing out tools, most of our part runs are 1-3 pcs, which to me doesnít justify spending the time setting up thru coolant on a job that we are making 1 pc on then pulling the tool out 20 minutes later to run a different job. I could be wrong on the cost effectiveness. It is an option


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    Quote Originally Posted by Micmac1 View Post
    We can run thru coolant but we are constantly changing out tools, most of our part runs are 1-3 pcs, which to me doesn’t justify spending the time setting up thru coolant on a job that we are making 1 pc on then pulling the tool out 20 minutes later to run a different job. I could be wrong on the cost effectiveness. It is an option


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    My point is that you shouldn't have to be "setting up" through coolant on a lathe. Your tool blocks should route coolant into the tool, if they do not, they should be made to do so.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gregormarwick View Post
    My point is that you shouldn't have to be "setting up" through coolant on a lathe. Your tool blocks should route coolant into the tool, if they do not, they should be made to do so.
    Well the allied drills are threaded on the end of tool so itís just a matter of running a line and a fitting from the block to the tool.


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    i found K-tool has some good stuff, its affordable compared to tungaloy and ingersoll. I drill all stainless and inco with these drills.
    plus theres a plug on the drill body for coolant thru. just thread in a npt locline and boom there you go.inserts for a .875 drill go for about 9bucks

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    As far as the coolant; just use a quick connect style fitting if you're doing a lot of changeover.

    I have always had good success with the Iscar Sumocham drills. For an insert drill, OSG and ingersoll both hve good ones. Problem with the latter is there is only one drill size per body unless you offset it in the machine.

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    I'm not sure I understand. Are you running CNC or manual machines? I've never seen a CNC lathe that didn't have ability to get coolant to the tool. (also never had a cnc lathe that could drive a spade drill.) I have used Kennametal DFT drills for 20+ years without incident. Have Ultra-dex also. Have had a few problems with them.

    We use Allied in the manual lathes. Just stick the coolant hose in the end of the body and drill away. 2 1/2 hole in 4145QT at 90 RPM .006 feed. 10, 12 14, 18 inch deep, doesn't matter. Gets the job done.


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