Indexable drills-- inboard/outboard inserts vs. universal. Opinions??
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    Default Indexable drills-- inboard/outboard inserts vs. universal. Opinions??

    The argument for inboard/outboard is that they need two different grades to optimize toughness on the inside and wear resistance on the outside.
    I haven't run enough side-by-side comparisons to get on my soapbox, but I tend to lean toward universal for the sake of standardizing and preventing operator screw-ups.

    As the title says, opinions please........

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    My opinion...
    It really depends on what you are doing. If you are in a job shop environment with short runs and lots of setups, then one universal grade probably makes sense.
    If you are in a high production environment and you want to fully optimize your process for lowest labor rate then I say use the best grades for inner and outer. Set up some kind of system to help reduce the likelihood of mixing up the grades...maybe a visual of the drill and inserts as a reminder to the operator. It doesn't matter how good of an operator you have...accidents can happen.

    For me, I use Sandvik's 880 drills. The inner and outer insert are shaped different and do not fit easily in each other's pockets (but they can be forced). I have yet to see an issue with accidental mixing with the inserts on these drills since I started using the 880 drill 15 years ago. It doesn't mean it hasn't happened...I just haven't been informed of it. I have several machines using these drills daily...low and high volume 316SS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bradleyk View Post
    For me, I use Sandvik's 880 drills. The inner and outer insert are shaped different and do not fit easily in each other's pockets (but they can be forced). I have yet to see an issue with accidental mixing with the inserts on these drills since I started using the 880 drill 15 years ago. It doesn't mean it hasn't happened...I just haven't been informed of it. I have several machines using these drills daily...low and high volume 316SS.
    880'S are great drills. They hold size fairly well and will drill into some odd geometry/angles without much trouble.

    We use Mitsubishi MVX for larger holes because they come in x6D, but stopped trying them for smaller holes since they tend to break very easily. They recommend a MC1020 for the outer insert in most situations and VP15TF for the inner. However we have never NOT had the MC1020 break when attempting to use it in any size so we just ended up using the VP15TF on both inner and outer inserts.

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    If you look at any of the higher-performing drills on the market, they'll all use dedicated & different inserts for the outer & inner. That is a clue...

    Sandvik's 880, Seco's Perfomax still lead the industry in terms of indexable drilling. I understand the "appeal" of drills which share inserts in the inner/outer pockets, but they just don't perform as well. And they never will.

    I understand the 'appeal' of only having to buy one box of inserts, but in the long run, the premium/high-performance drills are far, far cheaper.





    Here's a pretty cool video from Seco, showing off the versatility of a well made indexable drill.
    YouTube

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jashley73 View Post
    If you look at any of the higher-performing drills on the market, they'll all use dedicated & different inserts for the outer & inner. That is a clue...

    Sandvik's 880, Seco's Perfomax still lead the industry in terms of indexable drilling. I understand the "appeal" of drills which share inserts in the inner/outer pockets, but they just don't perform as well. And they never will.

    I understand the 'appeal' of only having to buy one box of inserts, but in the long run, the premium/high-performance drills are far, far cheaper.

    Here's a pretty cool video from Seco, showing off the versatility of a well made indexable drill.
    YouTube


    What about Iscar, Ingersoll, Tungaloy, Allied, OSG, Ultradex, etc.?

    Not trying to pick a fight, but I have had decent success with several of those (not Iscar ).

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    Just a quick funny story. Once went to a "premier" aerospace shop that we (couple jobs ago) bought out and were installing some machines. Anyhow, we bought some Sandvik insert (U) drills and their "top lathe guy" had never used one before.... ?

    I don't know how you run a lathe in any type of production and NOT use indexable drills, or exchangeable tips, or similar drills.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1974 View Post
    Just a quick funny story. Once went to a "premier" aerospace shop that we (couple jobs ago) bought out and were installing some machines. Anyhow, we bought some Sandvik insert (U) drills and their "top lathe guy" had never used one before.... ?

    I don't know how you run a lathe in any type of production and NOT use indexable drills, or exchangeable tips, or similar drills.
    What WAS he using, a giant HSS morse taper twist drill that was sharpened by hand?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChipSplitter View Post
    What about Iscar, Ingersoll, Tungaloy, Allied, OSG, Ultradex, etc.?

    Not trying to pick a fight, but I have had decent success with several of those (not Iscar ).
    Maybe good products, but not even close in performance. We use Seco Perfomax drills here in production, alloy steel. We wear out the bodies from chip-abrasion. Not insert failures.

    We used to run Iscar's version for years, and then opened up testing to about 15 different makes. Seco was the winner. For transparency, I was not in charge of, nor any part of the tests at the time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChipSplitter View Post
    What WAS he using, a giant HSS morse taper twist drill that was sharpened by hand?
    Can;t say for sure, maybe spade drills for larger holes, dunno... I was completely dumbfounded that the "top lathe guy" (their description of him, not mine!) didn't know what an insert drill (U drill, indexable, etc) was.

    Although we had a lathe guy years and years ago that would run the insert drills like HSS. Few hundred rpm, .002" feed,

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jashley73 View Post
    Maybe good products, but not even close in performance. We use Seco Perfomax drills here in production, alloy steel. We wear out the bodies from chip-abrasion. Not insert failures.

    We used to run Iscar's version for years, and then opened up testing to about 15 different makes. Seco was the winner. For transparency, I was not in charge of, nor any part of the tests at the time.
    The name is escaping now that I have started typing... LoL

    Don't remember the name for the life of me, but we got a crap load of cutting hours out of that brand in 4140ph. Sumitomo I think.
    Last edited by Mike1974; 06-01-2020 at 12:21 PM. Reason: remembered what I was talking about

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jashley73 View Post
    Maybe good products, but not even close in performance. We use Seco Perfomax drills here in production, alloy steel. We wear out the bodies from chip-abrasion. Not insert failures.

    We used to run Iscar's version for years, and then opened up testing to about 15 different makes. Seco was the winner. For transparency, I was not in charge of, nor any part of the tests at the time.
    I can't stand the Iscar DR-Twist. Their chipbreakers are a joke.

    Ingersoll and OSG have worked fairly well for us as well as Sandvik. I would like to try the Seco too, but MSC is the main reseller around here that I have found.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChipSplitter View Post
    I can't stand the Iscar DR-Twist. Their chipbreakers are a joke.

    Ingersoll and OSG have worked fairly well for us as well as Sandvik. I would like to try the Seco too, but MSC is the main reseller around here that I have found.
    If you're in Michigan, look at Alro. Big Seco distributor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jashley73 View Post
    If you're in Michigan, look at Alro. Big Seco distributor.
    I have, and they are "almost" worst than MSC. We buy a lot of steel from their steel side but.......

    It usually takes at least a week to get a quote on something, if they even bother to quote it at all.
    And their last salesman was a real jerk, just trying to sell stuff and totally clueless about most of it.
    Someone like Iwen Tool or PTS is usually back within an hour.

    Alright, rant over.

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    Mahar or Shively?
    As you I do like Iwen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideBob View Post
    Mahar or Shively?
    As you I do like Iwen.
    I've dealt with Shively........meh. They like to slam the competition about price and then never come back to visit.

    Iwen is our go-to here. The rep stops in every two weeks even though we're a small shop and they do very well at getting quotes back promptly. They aren't the cheapest around but their service is second to none.

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    All the best drills I've used use specific inserts for centre and peripheral. All the worst ones I've used don't. There is of course some crossover in the middle.

    Very worst offender that I have is an Allied 100mm Revolution drill that uses eight identical inserts. That thing is really very poorly thought out. I've debated their (lack of) merits on here before with IIRC MtnDew, who likes them. However, he did concede that his were smaller, again IIRC, around the 2" mark which would massively mitigate the issue.

    On the 100mm Revolution drill, it's practically impossible to achieve a surface speed where the outer insert doesn't get burned up and the inner insert still cuts. Likewise, it's practically impossible to achieve a feedrate where the outer insert does much more than rub away at the material, and the inner insert doesn't break from compressive stress. Every single hole drilled with that bastard drill takes a year off the operator's life. New cartridges are frequently required do to failures in cut wiping out the insert seats. I eventually gave up on that POS and assigned it to "Aluminium ONLY". Replaced it with a 80mm Tungaloy drill. The additional material to bore is a welcome compromise.

    The 880 drills are the best performers I've used especially in tougher materials (on the flip side of that, they suck in soft steels), and they comprise the majority of my selection of insert drills. They also tend to fail more gracefully than others.

    I also have been using a lot of Tungaloy TungSix Drills in the last couple of years. They are a nice hybrid approach - single insert, but it's double sided - one side has specific geometry for centre cutting, the other for peripheral cutting. Very thick, strong insert - good performer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChipSplitter View Post
    The argument for inboard/outboard is that they need two different grades to optimize toughness on the inside and wear resistance on the outside.
    I haven't run enough side-by-side comparisons to get on my soapbox, but I tend to lean toward universal for the sake of standardizing and preventing operator screw-ups.

    As the title says, opinions please........

    You chose to decide to try to insight a riot THIS week?


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    Think Snow Eh!
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    One carbide grade that can handle low SFM at center, high SFM ouside and is both tough and hard.
    Tell me why why do they have so many different grades of carbide.
    Life would be so much easier with one do it all well. Even if just a cast grade, a steel grade and a AL grade. Perhaps a fourth grade for exotics.
    Four to pick from, that would be a nice world.
    Certainly can see wanting a universal but it will be a trade-off. A smaller shop likely the best deal and way to go , production not so much.
    Every customer has different needs and demands.
    What is right for others may not be right for you and what is golden for you may be poop or expensive for others.

    My opinion is that there is no "right" answer.
    Bob

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    Indexable drills with inboard/outboard inserts are single flute effective.
    Want to see something that will pin your ears back? Try a Metcut Double Feed drill. Both inserts cut from centerline to outer edge. Used them at FMC on M1 Abrams track shoes. Nobody even came close.
    cec20970-0935-41d9-8fc2-0515fa5d2bed.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by exkenna View Post
    Indexable drills with inboard/outboard inserts are single flute effective.
    Want to see something that will pin your ears back? Try a Metcut Double Feed drill. Both inserts cut from centerline to outer edge. Used them at FMC on M1 Abrams track shoes. Nobody even came close.
    cec20970-0935-41d9-8fc2-0515fa5d2bed.jpg
    How do they handle the insert gap/overlap at the centre?

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