Jaws Not aligning for Phase Synchronous Part Transfer

Anyone know how to shift home position on a C axis built-in motor lathe main and sub spindle?

2000 Fanuc 18i-TA Control. (Mori MSC-501)

The dirt...

This hex threading job I sought threading info on earlier has forced another situation I'm unfamiliar with. Being as it's hex stock I need to use Phase Synchronous (M34) part transfer to work both ends of the part.

Problems:

1) Both spindles are of the built in type and do not have a normal Servo Amps driving their C axis positions. Resetting a home position by flipping a Parameter 1815 bit is not a thing here. The two Spindle Amps are A06B-6088(M) and A06B-6078(S).

2) When both spindles are homed in their respective C axis modes, the jaws are off by around 9 degrees or so. I'm almost positive it is these home positions the machine uses to synchronize the jaw positions during the transfer.

3) Anyone know how to shift these positions? I've been through the parameter manual including spindle motor settings. Other then C axis homing speed, anything that has to do with orientation has nothing entered as far as I can see. Typical M19 orientation is an option on these machines that I do not have from what I gather. I most definitely have Phase Synchronous transfer.

4) Chucks are not mount rotation shift-able. They are where they need to be to work properly.

I have a call into Mori but am doubtful on how long it'll be before I hear anything, while the job just keeps getting hotter.


Non technical chuck questions related to experience of others running dual spindle lathes.

1) Seeing as I have to change things anyway, I would like to orient the main spindle jaws to allow room for tighter access to the face of the chuck on X axis ER32 Live tools. X axis drill lengths are very limited on this machine. Being able to run the live tool nose into the rotational area of the jaws has already proved beneficial on one job. Just thinking it would be nice if C axis home was the setting to allow that to happen. Curious if others have needed or wanted this too?

2) When I fix the orient of the jaws for pass-off, is it smarter to have the jaws directly opposite each other, or rotated 60 degrees apart allowing the sub to nest in tight to the main chuck for a closer pickup? Just wondering what others think about this need or no need. My experience is limited on part transfer.

Any and all help is much appreciated.

Dave

could you offset the c position in a g54 by what you need?

pcasanova said:

could you offset the c position in a g54 by what you need?

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The manuals don't speak of any need to do that, and I'm wondering if once calling M34, if the control would pay any attention to that anyway. Though it is worth a try. I'd prefer to not have to play the game, but sometimes you've got to play games to get parts out the door. Thanks.

There should be a paramter for it as from the factory they have to be able to adjust it someway.
kinda like a roation in m19 on a mill.
I am sure they have one for each spindle

Parameters 4034 or 4073, maybe. MTBs can set it up multiple ways.

footpetaljones said:

Parameters 4034 or 4073, maybe. MTBs can set it up multiple ways.

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You might be on to something. Here's what the book says and here's what I got. Not sure what a "Word" data entry means in this situation. Least Input increment? Whole degree?

Data Table Heading in Parameter Manual
No. / Data type / Parameters to be used if the spindle switch function is not used or to be used for the MAIN spindle when the spindle is switched

4034 / Word / Shift amount when the spindle phase synchronization is controlled
4035 / Word / Spindle phase synchronization compensation data

Current Parameters

N04034 A1 P0 A2 P0
N04035 A1 P10 A2 P0

I suppose I could move one of these and see what happens.

I used P4077 on my mill once to correct the orientation of the spindle drive dog for the tool changer. That is also a built in Spindle.

NO 4077 Orientation Shift Amount

Like I said M19 is an option. Plus either spindle can be the C axis. All depends on witch one is active at the moment. I see C axis movement in the position display on the control no matter witch spindle is active C wise.

13engines said:

N04034 A1 P0 A2 P0
N04035 A1 P10 A2 P0

I suppose I could move one of these and see what happens.

Click to expand...

If nobody shows up with something more definite I don't see what this would hurt and changces are it'll end up trial and error.

If they adjusts in 1deg increments it appears 4035 A1 is already shifted 10deg and your saying you're off 9deg. I'd start by making 4035 A2 P10 see if it was better or worse. If it was me I'd play with the sub rather than the main just incase if this effects something else your not aware of.

Just me thinking out loud. I think you're on to it...

Brent

yardbird said:

If nobody shows up with something more definite I don't see what this would hurt and changces are it'll end up trial and error.

If they adjusts in 1deg increments it appears 4035 A1 is already shifted 10deg and your saying you're off 9deg. I'd start by making 4035 A2 P10 see if it was better or worse. If it was me I'd play with the sub rather than the main just incase if this effects something else your not aware of.

Just me thinking out loud. I think you're on to it...

Brent

Click to expand...

I've been through this not too long ago on one of ours, never got round to actually fixing it, but IIRC parameter 4034 is in encoder pulses, not degrees.

Also IIRC, 4035 is to do with speed fluctuation control during phase sync, rather than orientation, so maybe don't touch that one...

You could try a hack around by machining a hex in the main or sub jaws to grab at the 9 degrees difference. But I drank the Mazak coolade long ago and have jaw rotation and sync in many programs. I have some through holes where the ER 32 nut has to be between the jaws to get close enough.

Ok, not familiar with FANUC synchronization... But is there not simply an R word you can command with the M134 to phase shift the sub spindle?

For example, here's a Mitsubishi sync:


G114.1H1D-2R0

G114.1 is the sync command
H1 says head one is the master
D-2 says head 2 is the slave
R0 is the phase shift. So in your case, you could make it R9

Nothing like that possible with the FANUC?

gregormarwick said:

I've been through this not too long ago on one of ours, never got round to actually fixing it, but IIRC parameter 4034 is in encoder pulses, not degrees.

Also IIRC, 4035 is to do with speed fluctuation control during phase sync, rather than orientation, so maybe don't touch that one...

Click to expand...

Thanks for the tips. I think you saved my 50% of potential dinking around time. It is my way to want to fix this problem, and I'm sure I will sooner then later. Of course Mori Service is still nowhere to be found at this point.

I did think up a work around which might even speed up the process. After side one work I planned to grab the stock with the B axis, pull out the bar a few inches to make it so after cutoff both parts at their needed lengths to finish the one and start the next. Normal stuff I imagine.

What follows is in a way for my own good. No better way to solidify a process then to spell it out on paper.

1) Home the main spindle in C axis mode and set the brake.
2) Switch to C mode on the B axis and rotate it to the correction angle whether by a rotation or work offset call. (thanks pcasanova)
3) Move the B axis over and grab the part, open the main chuck.
4) Pull out the part to the needed length and close the main chuck.
5) Release brake and return both spindles to turning mode.
6) Now because both spindles are already rotationally synced, instead of Phase Synchronous Rotation (M34) I can use basic Speed Synchronous Rotation (M35) which works faster anyway.

The only difference here is a line or two of code and really no big deal.

Until further notice I think I have a workable solution for both a fix and workaround.

A little time and some helpful responses did the trick. Thank you all.

Sorry Teachmeplease... none of that code you offered is applicable. But thanks anyway.

Dave

Update:

After 4 or 5 tries I was able to set a "grid" number of sorts in the control in parameter 4035 for the 2nd spindle. This then appeared on the Spindle Tune screen as some shift amount. Now when I enter Phase Synchronous mode with M34 the spindles align. What I still find curious is if I Home both Main and Sub Spindles in their respective C axis modes, the sub is still at the original incorrect orientation which turned out to be 10.7 degrees.

I hope to at some point get the sub to home at the same position as it does in M34 Phase mode. Not sure how to go about that. I'll need this at some point to maintain orientation concerning part features after passing from one spindle to the other. This particular job doesn't have that so no problem this time. There are obvious work-arounds, but it's nice to have the machine operating as designed f possible.

Thanks again everyone for the tips.

Dave

13engines said:

Update:

After 4 or 5 tries I was able to set a "grid" number of sorts in the control in parameter 4035 for the 2nd spindle. This then appeared on the Spindle Tune screen as some shift amount. Now when I enter Phase Synchronous mode with M34 the spindles align. What I still find curious is if I Home both Main and Sub Spindles in their respective C axis modes, the sub is still at the original incorrect orientation which turned out to be 10.7 degrees.

I hope to at some point get the sub to home at the same position as it does in M34 Phase mode. Not sure how to go about that. I'll need this at some point to maintain orientation concerning part features after passing from one spindle to the other. This particular job doesn't have that so no problem this time. There are obvious work-arounds, but it's nice to have the machine operating as designed f possible.

Thanks again everyone for the tips.

Dave

Click to expand...

Are both spindles "C" on your machine? Not sure about that...

On mine the sub spindle is the A axis in rotary mode, so I can just zero it in the ext. offset.

gregormarwick said:

Are both spindles "C" on your machine? Not sure about that...

On mine the sub spindle is the A axis in rotary mode, so I can just zero it in the ext. offset.

Click to expand...

It's a 2000 Mori SL200-SMC. And yes they're both C. Depends on which one is deemed active at the moment either through program call or control panel button pushing. When moving the sub the screen shows that movement in the C column. BTW there are no "A" buttons on the machine anywhere. I do have an A and a 5 axis labeled here and there on the machine, but they're concerned with the live tool and turret motors. I can never remember which is which.

Off the top of my head I can't recall if I rotate the sub with C or not in a program. I know on the main I can use C and then H for incremental. Still a newb on this dang machine, so without staring into the books I'm still a little lost.

I'm sure there is a parameter somewhere to cure my ills, just haven't found it yet. Wonder if the encoder read head mounted on the sub spindle has fine adjustments on it. That could be a way.

Dave

I'm very interested to hear if you find a solution. I have a Mori SL-150 SMC. It has the same issue. I talked to Mori service a few years ago, but got no help.
I know my sub is off 41 degrees from the main. My work-around has been to rotate all my geometry by 41 degrees for the sub. It's not elegant, but it works. I don't have a parameter manual to look at for help.

Hello Flash,

If you have any of the following Fanuc models 16/18/20/21 your compensation parameter is likely the same as mine 4034 P2. Note I said 4035 previously which is a mistake I can' t edit at this time. Just know that every Fanuc Manual of any kind and for any control can be found for free on the www. Just Google it. It took me a setting of 121 in 4034 P2 to get my sub to rotate 10.7 degrees or very close to it. My encoder is listed as 60000 count. You could try a multiple of 121. My math tells me a setting of 464 might do it for you.

Who knows... worth a shot.

Dave

OK, there's a few things you could do.

On the Fanuc side of things there are parameters that control the C axis origin for both main and sub. when phase synch-ing the spindles if these are off, you'll have an issue. On later controls these were in the 3000 range but check your parameter manual.
You can also force the C axis origin with a G54/G55 etc command but that only works in mill mode not turning mode.

Grab your parameter manual - I think that one of these is off.

Oh, one last thing, sometimes there's a separate M code for synch during rotation. When I worked for a competitor, we used M203 for synch speed but M213 for synch speed and phase. You may want to make sure you are using the right command.