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  1. #41
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    Then don't use holders with so much projection! This isn't some pussy ass drill/tap machine with little linear ways, it's an honest to god box way machine! For that price is makes me think there is something wrong with it, but a 3 month waranty is pretty good insurance as long as they live up to it. What happens if something does go wrong, how will they remedy problems?

    Most of those face mills had long projection holders and all of them were square shoulder. If you get a Lyndex holder, stubbiest I know of a few years ago, and a 45 degree lead facemill you will not be disapointed. I am pretty sure in the US they only sold them with bbt spindles so I am surprised. Do you know what the drawbar force is?

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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidScott View Post
    Then don't use holders with so much projection! This isn't some pussy ass drill/tap machine with little linear ways, it's an honest to god box way machine! For that price is makes me think there is something wrong with it, but a 3 month waranty is pretty good insurance as long as they live up to it. What happens if something does go wrong, how will they remedy problems?

    Most of those face mills had long projection holders and all of them were square shoulder. If you get a Lyndex holder, stubbiest I know of a few years ago, and a 45 degree lead facemill you will not be disapointed. I am pretty sure in the US they only sold them with bbt spindles so I am surprised. Do you know what the drawbar force is?
    I am going to look at the machine later on this week.So hopefully I will find out more about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidScott View Post
    Then don't use holders with so much projection! This isn't some pussy ass drill/tap machine with little linear ways, it's an honest to god box way machine! For that price is makes me think there is something wrong with it, but a 3 month waranty is pretty good insurance as long as they live up to it. What happens if something does go wrong, how will they remedy problems?

    Most of those face mills had long projection holders and all of them were square shoulder. If you get a Lyndex holder, stubbiest I know of a few years ago, and a 45 degree lead facemill you will not be disapointed. I am pretty sure in the US they only sold them with bbt spindles so I am surprised. Do you know what the drawbar force is?
    I will go and see the machine tomorrow.
    I did find a pdf brochure for these machines, and it seems dual contact spindle is a standard option as you stated.
    I haven't got any btt holder I can take with me to check if is dual contact or not, is there anything else I can do to see if the machine has dual contact spindle or not?

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    My spindle nose has about a .2" wide contact ring that is maybe .035" proud on the spindle nose. I have never seen this on standard spindles. Do you have a national or EU service center for Kitamura? Before I ever buy a used mill I contact the national service center to see what they can tell me about the machine in question, what I can expect from them for service and how much it will cost. Some MTBs have "registration" fees for used machines before they will even sell you parts let alone give phone tech support. I know I would be screwed without their support, I have had to use it several times.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidScott View Post
    My spindle nose has about a .2" wide contact ring that is maybe .035" proud on the spindle nose. I have never seen this on standard spindles. Do you have a national or EU service center for Kitamura? Before I ever buy a used mill I contact the national service center to see what they can tell me about the machine in question, what I can expect from them for service and how much it will cost. Some MTBs have "registration" fees for used machines before they will even sell you parts let alone give phone tech support. I know I would be screwed without their support, I have had to use it several times.
    Yes there is a national and both eu support for these machines.

    Would you mind to take a picture of the spindle nose so I know what I am looking at?

    I will keep you posted

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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidScott View Post
    My spindle nose has about a .2" wide contact ring that is maybe .035" proud on the spindle nose. I have never seen this on standard spindles. Do you have a national or EU service center for Kitamura? Before I ever buy a used mill I contact the national service center to see what they can tell me about the machine in question, what I can expect from them for service and how much it will cost. Some MTBs have "registration" fees for used machines before they will even sell you parts let alone give phone tech support. I know I would be screwed without their support, I have had to use it several times.
    I went to see the machine today, it seems to be in good condition as they stated, I have seen it running, no particular noise , it does have simple high speed machining option ,on the book it seems to have even the better high speed machining option , but couldn't get it working while I was there.

    Machine overall seems like it hasn't been abused.

    The APC is actually the rotating one and not shuttle type one which I prefer.

    If I decide to buy it, I will have 3 months warranty, they will be the support people for the machine, as they used to be the national Kitamura support centre.

    I did look at the spindle, i did see a sort of flange contact area on the spindle face, but not sure if that means it's a dual contact one.

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    The rotating table is by far the better type of pallet changer but it makes setups a PITASS. Great for production but sucks for anything else. I have heard it WILL work your ass off trying to keep up with the machine.

    Once I get my machine running I will try to get a picture of my spindle nose. It sounds like it is a dual contact, why else would there be the contact ring on the nose?

    Here is the photo of my spindle nose, looks like it needs cleaning.

    spindle-nose.jpg
    Last edited by DavidScott; 05-03-2019 at 06:09 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidScott View Post
    The rotating table is by far the better type of pallet changer but it makes setups a PITASS. Great for production but sucks for anything else. I have heard it WILL work your ass off trying to keep up with the machine.

    Once I get my machine running I will try to get a picture of my spindle nose. It sounds like it is a dual contact, why else would there be the contact ring on the nose?

    Here is the photo of my spindle nose, looks like it needs cleaning.

    spindle-nose.jpg
    Hi

    Thanks for the reply as usual!
    Here is the picture I took yesterday.

    Spindle looks similar but not the same, I am not sure!
    It also has the bits missing for some reason

    I wait your feedback
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 20190503_122821.jpg  

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    Whoa there, it is missing the drive dogs. You can't run the machine without them, why have they been removed??? It also looks like a bit of corosion in the taper . That looks like a dual contact spindle nose to me. Got more photos? From the looks of everything else I would also pull the way covers back to take a look at the ways and screws. You will have to do this to make sure all lube points are getting way oil. What I did was to pull the line just after the metering units to introduce an air bubble and then watched the bubbles travel up the line as the lube pump cycled, which is once every 14 minutes on mine. Make sure you grease the way covers to seal them when you put them back in place, I use waterproof silicone for pool filter O-rings because I have it on hand.

    Did they run tool changes? What all did you do with it? How much is rigging to your shop? How much to get it back if you find out there is too much wrong with it? Does the 3 month waranty get paused if they have to fix anything? Do not run the spindle faster than 4k without a tool holder as that can damage it.

    Make sure you have good tech support that you can afford if you get this machine as it is complicated. One thing that has bitten me in the ass a few times is when I do a tool change and realize I missed something. I hit feed hold and then press reset before the carosel is done presorting the next tool, big mistake! Now it is stuck between positions and I have to go through a 10 minute procedure to set the carousel, the first time will take longer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidScott View Post
    Whoa there, it is missing the drive dogs. You can't run the machine without them, why have they been removed??? It also looks like a bit of corosion in the taper . That looks like a dual contact spindle nose to me. Got more photos? From the looks of everything else I would also pull the way covers back to take a look at the ways and screws. You will have to do this to make sure all lube points are getting way oil. What I did was to pull the line just after the metering units to introduce an air bubble and then watched the bubbles travel up the line as the lube pump cycled, which is once every 14 minutes on mine. Make sure you grease the way covers to seal them when you put them back in place, I use waterproof silicone for pool filter O-rings because I have it on hand.

    Did they run tool changes? What all did you do with it? How much is rigging to your shop? How much to get it back if you find out there is too much wrong with it? Does the 3 month waranty get paused if they have to fix anything? Do not run the spindle faster than 4k without a tool holder as that can damage it.

    Make sure you have good tech support that you can afford if you get this machine as it is complicated. One thing that has bitten me in the ass a few times is when I do a tool change and realize I missed something. I hit feed hold and then press reset before the carosel is done presorting the next tool, big mistake! Now it is stuck between positions and I have to go through a 10 minute procedure to set the carousel, the first time will take longer.
    Drive dogs, that's the word I was looking for.

    And yes zooming the picture, I also see there is rust on the taper which worries me.
    Apparently as they said the machine has been used very little, it has been sat in a warehouse for years.
    Not sure what is the reason of that rust.

    I am not too worried abour the drive dogs, as it should be easier for them to find them.
    They did run toolchanges, and everything sounded ok to me.
    The were aware of not running the spindle at high speed without tool, and the warm up procedures and the other things to check after the machine has been sat for a while as you mentioned me.

    The rigging cost are about 3000 usd , that includes installation and commissioning.Basically leave my shop with the machine running.

    Because of that rust on taper, I don't feel that confident anymore

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    Considering the price installed with a 3 month waranty I doubt you will find another deal this good so don't worry about the corrosion in the taper, it's not a deal killer. I would be far more interested in seeing the ways, like where the table and saddle sat for all those years in storage. If your doing volume production runs over a couple hundered parts, especially in steel, this machine is going to be very hard to beat. Don't get scared, just more observant. If you find the ways have been etched then again not a deal killer but the price should come down considerably as the life of the machine will be shortened. It will still run fine but it will wear the turcite faster.

    Just thought that maybe the drive dogs were removed to use on another machine since this one wasn't being used, which would be in line with it not being used much. How many hours is on the three counters? Remote MPG? You would want that for setups!

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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidScott View Post
    .......Just thought that maybe the drive dogs were removed to use on another machine since this one wasn't being used, which would be in line with it not being used much......
    Not a Kitamura, but I worked on a machine where the user removed the drive dogs because the orientation position was not quite right. It was causing a problem with the toolchanger so they just took them off rather than fix the orientation alignment.

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    I'm trying to be optimistic. The other thought like you said is they crashed it so hard with that 3" face mill that the spindle coupling slipped so the dogs didn't line up anymore. Quick fix is to just remove them. After spinning a few tools and tearing up the tool changer arm it went into storage. At least since it is a box way machine you don't have to worry about the head being out of whack because the casting slipped on the way blocks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vancbiker View Post
    Not a Kitamura, but I worked on a machine where the user removed the drive dogs because the orientation position was not quite right. It was causing a problem with the toolchanger so they just took them off rather than fix the orientation alignment.
    Well, this could be the reason, they were removed because something was wrong or either to use them on another machine, one of the other.

    As they stated the machine will be delivered , and the engineers will leave my workshop with the machine in running conditions, so I would expect they would fix this drive dogs missing issue.

    I could be wrong I think machine has 1745 running time hours which is not a lot!It must have been re zeroed at some point

    Seller said the machine would last me 20 years, I would be happy if it lasts me half of that!

    They are sure I will have no problems with that for long time, if I do , I will be on the phone and they will be there as they said

    They are not 2nd hand dealers, they mainly sell brand new machines to very prestigious companies.
    I had a good impression too about the selling company, but of course you never know...

    For that sort of price I can't even expect to get a perfect brand new machine.

    So what shall I ask on the email I am gonna send next week?

    I am so happy this forum exists, so helpful for people like me, thank you guys!

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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidScott View Post

    Do not run the spindle faster than 4k without a tool holder as that can damage it.
    What can be damaged, and why?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mud View Post
    What can be damaged, and why?
    I don't know. When I called the national tech center to see what they could tell me about the machine I was looking at buying one of the first things he told me was "Don't run the spindle faster than 4k because you can damage it".

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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidScott View Post
    I don't know. When I called the national tech center to see what they could tell me about the machine I was looking at buying one of the first things he told me was "Don't run the spindle faster than 4k because you can damage it".
    Just an update, I am almost sure to get the machine now, they cleaned the taper it seemed to be just a very light tarnish on taper , they also put driving dogs up, without me even asking for it.

    They also sent me pictures of the box ways they looked quite neat to me.

    And they reminded me again about the warranty.

    Looking and asking around I am pretty sure it's a dual contact spindle too

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    Find out/ demand that the warranty time stops while they fix any problems, if any should arise. Watch them when they level the machine and pay attention when they sweep the table for tram. Hopefully they will have a square to test that the Z axis is perpendicular to the table, sweeping the table for tram does not test for this. My concern here is wear on the head clamp rails. How good is your compressor? This machine uses about 11 cfm of air at 60 psi.

    If it is in good shape and you maintain it then 20 years is not an exageration.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidScott View Post
    Find out/ demand that the warranty time stops while they fix any problems, if any should arise. Watch them when they level the machine and pay attention when they sweep the table for tram. Hopefully they will have a square to test that the Z axis is perpendicular to the table, sweeping the table for tram does not test for this. My concern here is wear on the head clamp rails. How good is your compressor? This machine uses about 11 cfm of air at 60 psi.

    If it is in good shape and you maintain it then 20 years is not an exageration.
    Compressor is 14cfm at 147psi max, should it be fine?

    They quoted for a 2 day installation/commissioning, so I am expecting them to perform all the necessary tasks.

    But I will mention them what you told me yes!

    Is there any system to ensure there is not swarf on the face contact area on the spindle using dual contact tool holders?

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    You may want to put a fan on the compressor to help it stay cooler, I have. My compressor is a cheaper 4hp 2 stage and works fine, just runs alot. The spindle air blast is the best I have ever used, I never clean my tapers that are in the machine, they just never need it. I think you should just use the machine and not overthink what to expect. What got me was the following:

    1 It uses a lot of air so you will have to deal with a hot compressor and way more water in the air. I put an electric fan on my compressor, an after cooler between the pump and tank and a water separator between the after cooler and tank. I don't have an air dryer and I don't ever see any evidence of water or vapor in my shop air. Before I made these adjustments I had a lot of water in my shop air.

    2 There will be a lot of way oil in your coolant, you will need a good way to get it out.


    Don't crash it, the axis drives are very stout!

    Listen for banging way covers, the rubber bumpers do die and have to be maintained. Rapids at 50% will help the way covers and doesn't waste more than a few seconds on a 2 minute cycle with several tool changes. Some proprietary bumpers can be found at Hennigs.


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