Kitamura Medcenter... Anyone ever used one? - Page 3
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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by SRT Mike View Post
    I have no experience with the Medcenter, but I do work at a shop with a bunch of Kitamuras and I have owned and worked with lots of different machines in the past. Personally, I would not buy a Kitamura for several reasons:

    1) The control is buggy. It does weird stuff, like you load the probe and touch off a part, then load your program, hit reset, and the program starts and cranks the probe up to 15k RPM thinking it's on the first tool of the program.

    2) They have an "Arumatik" control based on a Mitsubishi 850 under the hood. It's the latest and greatest from Mitsubishi, yet even with the memory maxed out, it's still only got 2MB of RAM. Pitiful and shameful.

    3) The NC unit itself is fast in processing code, but it's slow in other ways... it sits and waits for a second when you do things like turn on the high-speed machining, or when you run the tool break check, or run a probing cycle. It's just sluggish and really impacts chip-to-chip time.

    The machines haven't seemed to be all that reliable. Two new Kitty's this year and both have had extensive service calls and repairs, one of them major requiring months of repair attempts by the manufacturer, ultimately resulting in a new machine being built to replace the one on the floor.

    Just my .02. Some things I like, the machine is accurate and can take a hefty cut... but I don't think the compromises are worth it. And don't get me started on a Mitsu control that's skinned to be just as clunky and counter intuitive as Fanuc... like putting the interior from a Toyota Corolla into a Lamborghini - insanity.
    I have few things myself but don't really want to stick the "Boot" in …

    But still nice that someone wants to build machines that can cut really straight. (at least some of them).

    I found with MYTrunion 4G (medium sized 5 axis dedicated vertical),trying to buy that seems quite affordable but then you dig deeper and you need scales all axes and a few other bits and bobs and it becomes quite a bit more expensive but the machine rotationally is not that accurate without them ? [Not being over picky , it's a big difference but difficult to get concrete info if you don't speak Japanese.] Not the deal one hopes one would get but that's how it goes anyway lol.

    I have a lot of respect for Dr Kitamura and the idea behind what they bring and how they build and broader picture as a company I have a lot of respect for.

    Sad that the software side of things becomes tricky or untanglable mess and I'm sure they are heavily invested in that. (Doesn't always have to be a mess) ~ At least they are trying (seemingly).

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    They are Mitsubishi but the Arumatik interface is designed and made to look and function exactly the same as a Fanuc control, so you get all the clumsiness and bad interface design of a fanuc control and the shameful maximum 2mb memory you'd get if it had a fanuc on it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BROTHERFRANK View Post
    2nd tool in this video is an OSG Disc Cutter 125mm :
    YouTube

    Cycle time of 4 minutes was essentially one minute to rough, one minute to finish, one minute to drill and tap (8000 rpm) 58 holes and one minute to chamfer. I was thrilled to say the least. The 27K spindles and 10K High Torques are my favorites.
    When it comes to machining any material on a Brother, it all comes down to 'can I hold the part in my hand' or does it fit in a shoe box or pizza box? Many of our clients machine Inconel, tool steels, Ti ... every day. The eight 27ks we recently installed enjoy a steady diet of 17-4 H900.
    OT but I have to ask, does the z axis run on gunpowder?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jmaks View Post
    OT but I have to ask, does the z axis run on gunpowder?
    When Brother designed the Speedios, they determined that the Z axis performance makes a very significant difference when attempting to cut out non-cutting time. Compared to the previous models, the Speedios have double the horsepower Z axis motors/amplifiers. They went from 1.1 to 2.2 Gs acceleration for the Z axis. That video is also showing the Yukiwa DRC direct drive rotary at 200 rpm and super fast clamp/unclamp.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SRT Mike View Post
    They are Mitsubishi but the Arumatik interface is designed and made to look and function exactly the same as a Fanuc control, so you get all the clumsiness and bad interface design of a fanuc control and the shameful maximum 2mb memory you'd get if it had a fanuc on it.
    In the Arumatik electrical cabinet there is slot to install a CF card. It’s like having a data server. You can edit, run, search right from the card. Now getting a program from the DS to the CNC memory can be a pain, but having 1GB extra is like a poor mans DS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    Ok going through the PDF / catalog , definitely seems like a "wonder" machine , and seems like they take heat removal from linear motors really seriously (as they should).

    travels 160 x 160 x 200 (mm).

    That machine has to be at least $400K

    really nice design seems like they did everything !
    Yeah it's spendy with all the tech built into a small machine. Mineral casting, heat removal 100% duty cycle, wicked accuracy. Thing is scary fast with linear motors and DD torque motors on the rotaries.
    A cool design feature is that all the tool changing/ changers come from high on the top. moreover, the pallet automation also comes from the left below the tool changer. So operator access is unimpeded. The lowest cataloged built-in pallet changer barely changes the footprint.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    I assume A2 tool (hardened) steel no problem / issues of rigidity "biting back" ? I think we had a good thread about that recently ?
    I realize that your are not the OP on this thread, but reading that line made me stop & raise an eyebrow...

    I would just like to caution you before getting in too deep, on planning on using a very lightweight machine for hard-milling, if that is a considerable part of your planned mix of work. I'm saying this knowing that this can turn into a very broad statement. And I'm sure members on here can provide anecdotal evidence of hard-milling on a 30-taper machine.

    However...

    If you want to get 'serious' about hard-milling, there is a cost that comes along with that. That cost becomes higher the more demanding your requirements on precision & finish are...

    I'm not sure how many heat-treated tool-steel components at 35+HRC there are in your camera systems, but I would re-think if these are necessary, and/or if it would be wise to run them (profitably) on a lightweight machine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jashley73 View Post
    I realize that your are not the OP on this thread, but reading that line made me stop & raise an eyebrow...

    I would just like to caution you before getting in too deep, on planning on using a very lightweight machine for hard-milling, if that is a considerable part of your planned mix of work. I'm saying this knowing that this can turn into a very broad statement. And I'm sure members on here can provide anecdotal evidence of hard-milling on a 30-taper machine.

    However...

    If you want to get 'serious' about hard-milling, there is a cost that comes along with that. That cost becomes higher the more demanding your requirements on precision & finish are...

    I'm not sure how many heat-treated tool-steel components at 35+HRC there are in your camera systems, but I would re-think if these are necessary, and/or if it would be wise to run them (profitably) on a lightweight machine.
    That's just my crafty way of trying to draw Brother Frank out on that... rather than "call" team "Brother" out on that :-) Sometimes what is not said is more valuable. ( blink , blink .).



    I have learnt much from those chirping crickets and tumble weeds …

    I do (for sure) appreciate your viewpoint / experience of that and technical point you are making.

    It's one thing to some-how remove metal from a hardened blob or block of hardened steel , it's another thing entirely to do high quality 3d contouring in hardened materials. It's the "How" you are removing material and what kind of surface are you left with + tooling being a huge factor + not trashing/ chipping all your tooling either at a rate that would kill any so called "Process".

    I'm not suggesting using light weight machines for tool steels (semi hardened or harder), but that still doesn't stop people … And certainly doesn't stop people making youtube videos about it either lol.

    But also remember something like a Makino D200 Z small high speed spindle can do some amazing tool and die work on smaller parts on tool steels hardened … Obviously tiny chips.

    I can't give too much away … But a super rigid and precise machine can cut out / eliminate a couple of steps even though one may be using Wire EDM , surface grinding and jig grinding. More a matter of material removal with the minimum of part distortion and how the order of operations and processes have to be switched around sometimes.


    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________


    I'm still interested in Dennis's / Dstryr's "Quest".

    I have some stuff I'll post later to try and get the thread also back on track :-)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jashley73 View Post
    I realize that your are not the OP on this thread, but reading that line made me stop & raise an eyebrow...

    I would just like to caution you before getting in too deep, on planning on using a very lightweight machine for hard-milling, if that is a considerable part of your planned mix of work. I'm saying this knowing that this can turn into a very broad statement. And I'm sure members on here can provide anecdotal evidence of hard-milling on a 30-taper machine.

    However...

    If you want to get 'serious' about hard-milling, there is a cost that comes along with that. That cost becomes higher the more demanding your requirements on precision & finish are...

    I'm not sure how many heat-treated tool-steel components at 35+HRC there are in your camera systems, but I would re-think if these are necessary, and/or if it would be wise to run them (profitably) on a lightweight machine.
    We mill 17-4 and 15-5 in the H900/45 range all the time. For small parts it allows to machine in the heat treated condition so warpage does not have a negative impact after machining. Now about 50 or 55 is a whole different world.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cameraman View Post
    That's just my crafty way of trying to draw Brother Frank out on that... rather than "call" team "Brother" out on that :-) Sometimes what is not said is more valuable. ( blink , blink .).



    I have learnt much from those chirping crickets and tumble weeds …
    You must think you are the only one on the planet with a brain. I knew exactly what you were doing with your 'crafty' ways. Ever wonder why you got crickets and tumbleweeds? It's probably safe to say you get crickets and tumbleweeds often. I can assure you and anyone else that if you have a real question and a real application we will put our best effort forward. We do nothing in secret, we have tech centers all over where we can do tests and demonstrations which we do all the time. Not to mention multitudes of very satisfied users machining many different materials and types of work pieces.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BROTHERFRANK View Post
    You must think you are the only one on the planet with a brain. I knew exactly what you were doing with your 'crafty' ways. Ever wonder why you got crickets and tumbleweeds? It's probably safe to say you get crickets and tumbleweeds often. I can assure you and anyone else that if you have a real question and a real application we will put our best effort forward. We do nothing in secret, we have tech centers all over where we can do tests and demonstrations which we do all the time. Not to mention multitudes of very satisfied users machining many different materials and types of work pieces.
    No ill intent at all …

    I think you got the wrong end of stick.

    The youtube videos I was thinking of were more Tormach related. NYCNC has made a number of videos cutting hardened tool steel on a Tormach and even Titan has made videos of Tormach cutting Hasteloy X.

    As I said I am pleased that you share what you share …

    I was hoping for a bit more on the tool steel front ?

    And question of what the rigidity of the Brother machine (in question) would be in respect of hard milling
    ?

    I think @2outof3 answered that really well / where I imagined things would lie.

    I think @Jashley's point is valid and he has more of an idea of what I'm getting up to application wise.

    I was making a open joke tongue in cheek.

    I know you are smart. I have never claimed to be in possession of a "Brain".

    More than one two or three if not four Foxy foxes on this thread :-) Not least the one that started this thread someone I have a lot of respect for.

    I keep an open mind and try to pay attention and try to make sure I have not overlooked something ~ Which is always possible.

    Eric

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    Quote Originally Posted by BROTHERFRANK View Post
    You must think you are the only one on the planet with a brain. I knew exactly what you were doing with your 'crafty' ways. Ever wonder why you got crickets and tumbleweeds? It's probably safe to say you get crickets and tumbleweeds often. I can assure you and anyone else that if you have a real question and a real application we will put our best effort forward. We do nothing in secret, we have tech centers all over where we can do tests and demonstrations which we do all the time. Not to mention multitudes of very satisfied users machining many different materials and types of work pieces.
    So the idea as stated..

    Is to draw you out to share a bit more , not as I said conversely "Call you out" which would be more normal form for PM forum.

    But if you want to attempt to insult your "prospects" I can't help you there.

    So in the interim, I was actually looking up the spindle torque curves for the Makino F5 20 K rpm...

    And for those mold machines the actual wattage and torque curve is fairly low. Fairly modest torque and wattage through the range.

    So that' why I was interested in your 27K rpm spindle... ???? vis a vis published torque curve ?

    @Jashley is a fan of big cuts and low end torque... (we have talked about that a lot back and forth). AND he's looking out for me, he's a cool gizza with a lot of experience that doesn't want to see me f*ck up :-)

    Really interested in what or how Dennis / @Dstryr makes out as he's getting into more aerospace type materials and Titaniums seeking efficient smaller machines also … That's directly relevant also to what we need.

    @2outof3 we have engaged successfully / nicely in the recent past... He seems to understand the kind of risks that smaller companies face (in my sectors), and also the need to spend some time to better understand what process(es) is/are really needed. Our goalposts keep shifting but in GOOD way. Andy does seem to understand the need to not under-invest, understand process (broad strokes, lots of years experience as well), and also at the same time not have clients drive the bus off the cliff or be oversold ~ We're ALL in this together. But in the sectors I work in TRUST is the # 1 criteria beyond technical excellence or expertise or even raw capability.

    I'm not accussing you guys of hiding anything … nor being a 'smart arse"... (although second half that video that you posted does look like / has the appearance of frames being pulled - no big deal, that's "marketing" right ?.) ~ But you @BROTHERFRANK made a good point about breaking systems … 'cuz that's what I was thinking about residual vibration etc. at super high speeds, "We" pay attention. Or at least try to.


    I don't really care if anyone responds or reads my posts anyway ? It's not mount Rushmore they can be deleted. Not a big deal.

    Later dude.
    .

    I'm day 13 or 14 still trying to shake off SAR-COV-2 waiting for the other shoe to drop or get on with sh*t.


    Stay safe and stay smart
    Last edited by cameraman; 04-03-2020 at 07:22 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BALNH View Post
    In the Arumatik electrical cabinet there is slot to install a CF card. It’s like having a data server. You can edit, run, search right from the card. Now getting a program from the DS to the CNC memory can be a pain, but having 1GB extra is like a poor mans DS.
    This is true, however you can run into problems. Four come to mind (I am sure there are more)

    -to edit a program on the DS, you have to go into memory, then scroll through the menu to get to "DS", then select the program on the pop-up screen, then go back to edit mode. Way over complicated and confusing for operators

    -the automatic backup the control offers doesn't include DS programs, so you will need to stay on top of manually backing all that up

    -when you edit a program after each individual change (alter or insert), the whole program is saved, meaning the screen hangs for 5-10 seconds while it saves the whole thing. Infuriating if you're trying to make lots of changes

    -you can't (always) call a sub program on the DS from a program in memory, and pass a variable to it. There are workarounds on the latest version of the Arumatik HMI but it's a kludge

    I've also had issues where the NC program on the DS gets corrupted and it replaces the file with a blank one. Infuriating when you're proving out a new program and making changes, only to lose it all at the end.

    And since the main memory maxes out at 2MB, it's not like the user has many options... it's easy to make a program with minimal surfacing that's well over 2MB, so these hassles are forced on the user.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SRT Mike View Post
    This is true, however you can run into problems. Four come to mind (I am sure there are more)

    -to edit a program on the DS, you have to go into memory, then scroll through the menu to get to "DS", then select the program on the pop-up screen, then go back to edit mode. Way over complicated and confusing for operators

    -the automatic backup the control offers doesn't include DS programs, so you will need to stay on top of manually backing all that up

    -when you edit a program after each individual change (alter or insert), the whole program is saved, meaning the screen hangs for 5-10 seconds while it saves the whole thing. Infuriating if you're trying to make lots of changes

    -you can't (always) call a sub program on the DS from a program in memory, and pass a variable to it. There are workarounds on the latest version of the Arumatik HMI but it's a kludge

    I've also had issues where the NC program on the DS gets corrupted and it replaces the file with a blank one. Infuriating when you're proving out a new program and making changes, only to lose it all at the end.

    And since the main memory maxes out at 2MB, it's not like the user has many options... it's easy to make a program with minimal surfacing that's well over 2MB, so these hassles are forced on the user.
    This not perfect for sure. The edit hangs are annoying but 20$ bucks for 2 gb, it’s worth the hassle for most people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BALNH View Post
    This not perfect for sure. The edit hangs are annoying but 20$ bucks for 2 gb, it’s worth the hassle for most people.
    I hope I didn't come across as criticizing your very helpful post I noticed you're in NH... what do you have for Kitamuras? I am sure I have heard all about you - I've gotten to know the service guys from Packard pretty well (Arthur, Dave and Pete). They are awesome and the support is top notch... hopefully the issues we've had are mostly a fluke. The owner of the shop I do work for has the ear of Dr. Kitamura, so we're hoping we can effect some changes (although some of my personal gripes are from the Mitsubishi side of things and I imagine even a big outfit like Kitamura is a tiny amoeba to a huge business like Mitsubishi).

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    We have a 3xt, may not have heard much about us. We’ve dealt with able and methods and this was our first purchase with Packard. Top notch. And yes the people at Packard are awesome. They have been very responsive to any issues and are right down the road. Dave is wicked smaaaart.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BALNH View Post
    We have a 3xt, may not have heard much about us. We’ve dealt with able and methods and this was our first purchase with Packard. Top notch. And yes the people at Packard are awesome. They have been very responsive to any issues and are right down the road. Dave is wicked smaaaart.
    @SRTMike and @BALNH I do really appreciate these kinds of discussions as it gives a more accurate picture of the "Network" of "Peeps" supporting all this (important to me). The kinds of minor foibles and various niggles actually engenders more trust as it were . I.e. stuff works a few in-process kinks that can be ironed out etc. or just pervasive minor annoyances that in reality are not actually "Obstructive" to getting things done / running parts.

    I just happened to stumble on this ?

    Kitamura Mytrunnion-2G Picture - Packard Machinery Company

    ^^^ This the Kitamura Mytrunnion-2G

    It was exhibited at the last IMTS (I believe) …


    kitty-two-gee.jpg

    ^^^ Click on this to "Blow Up". (+ ROBOT + Carousel ). [I got this from a separate "source" .].

    I know a few things about it but I also see it's not listed on Kitamura USA website ?

    Normally I'd be going through 'Denny" at AME inc in CO. (really really really nice guys ).

    Not sure how many cats are officially out of the bag yet on the 2G so have to double check what I'm allowed to say or not say etc. ????

    Interesting that Packard would have that.

    I have to admit that the control does look kinda cute + tons of documentation actually on the control.

    The mechatronics and straightness orthogonally on the Kittys do seem pretty superb (very relevant for what we need / potentially reduce grinding steps + 3 micron circularity (interpolated)).

    __________________________________________________ ________________________________


    On separate random front : Kitamura related ~ Anybody run their 4 step geared spindle - Looks really awesome, high torque low end but low runout high surface finishes @20K rpm ?

    AND : the Mycenter-3020G, 20k (3 axis vertical) looks very "Groovy" in dark grey or black-ish anyone know what's different about the NEW-newish G -series ?

    Wondering what spindle is on the MEDCENTER ?

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    Ordered a Speedio S700 27k Rpm 21 Tool machine today with Yukiwa TNT100. The tilt table will be setup with a pneumatic schunk vise and we will be loading the first job with a Schunk Tool holder gripper to "automate" the machine. I have a plan on how to deal with not having thermal stability built into the machine (no scales, no spindle chiller, no cooled ball screws, etc). Pretty confident in being able to eliminate it with both probing systems (spindle and tool length)

    I'll report back after its running... Should be here within 3 weeks. I've always wanted to do this tool holder loading system from a tray ever since Andy showed to me like 10 years ago... Here goes nothing. For those of you who have seen my posts over the years we are a huge brother supporter. I've had up to 8 of their machines at one time. I figure if this works out like I expect it to the machine is cost effective enough to start replacing my normal 3x older brothers with these as they age out.


    Kitamura pricing was too much for me to justify moving cheap work to it...
    Same with Makinoi

    I was really interested in the DMP 70 5axis ... Same old story really. Nothing ready to sell even though I've been asking about it for almost a year now.

    On a side note it is kinda scary ordering a machine in a time like this...
    We have plenty of work on the books (thankfully) to run the next 3-4 months and one new job that will run for 6-9 months off and on for this particular speedio.

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    Thank you Dennis. We will have a design review meeting this morning to finish up jaws for the vise, jaws for the gripper and the pneumatic system to feed both. Our plan is to use the Brother thermal comp setting as active all the time. I think you will be surprised how well that works. Talk to you later today and thank you again for the opportunity.

    Andy

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    ^^^ Just for completeness … lol. This is kinda fun. Inconel 718 on a Tormach with and without ceramic end mill.

    Emphasis being how some machinist like to cut.

    ______________________________________




    and



    ^^^ Terrific concept / design but insanely expensive … ? I really don't know what Dr. Mori is smoking these days - AND yes I know I may have indirectly insulted a living demi-god.(Uhh Ohhh ).

    _____________________________________


    The Brother MX 300 X II looks very interesting / nice machine ~ but we have literally designed out 95% of the mill-turn work we were heavily reliant on before. Having raised our needed tolerances (i.e. tighter / straighter / squarer), we have come up with rather different and unique designs... So much less reliant on the idea of "Hard turning" but squarely in the domains of different grinding techniques.

    I think 2outof3 kinda nailed it (for me) with the notion of minimal distortion / disruption to a material / structure (microscopically and macroscopically) + introduction of unnecessary heat and stresses in cut introduced to a material. So some of these high rpm smaller spindles really do have advantages for precision assemblies (smaller). Tricky where everything meets on the street corner of Wire EDM, Milling and grinding + "Other".


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