Kurt DX6 or Glacern Vises

I'm tooling a VMC soon, and I'll need 4 vises on the bed for basic 3 axis work. Most of my parts are 6061 flat bars at 4, 6, 8, or 10 inch widths. I've narrowed down my vise choices to Kurt DX6 or Glacern Machine Tools GSV-690. They look pretty much identical, the Kurts would be about $600 each plus shipping while the Glacern vises are $400 each and close enough that I can pick them up locally.
The 10 inch plate/flat bars will sit on parallels in each vise with the vise jaws removed (to get to 10 inches open).
Compare the two below:
DX6 CrossOver Vise | 6” Manual Vise with 9” Opening
https://www.glacern.com/gsv_690

Originally I didn't consider the GMT vises, but I found out yesterday that they are only $400 each. I called and they said the vises are cast, machined, and ground locally in SoCal, nothing Chinese or even Taiwanese. They say they match bed heights too, which is important for my long parts.

So has anyone here used these GMT vises? I read this whole thread, it strongly points to the GMT vises being imported from Taiwan after being painted black. Mostly negative comments toward GMT, especially the past. I don't know if they still do this kind of stuff. But I keep thinking, even if they are imported Taiwanese vises, the finish grind is what determines the flatness and they are still much cheaper than the alternative.
https://www.practicalmachinist.com/...rn-modular-vise-load-horse-304094/index6.html

Anyone with experience with Kurt DX6 vises and/or the Glacern vises, please comment for clarity! Thanks!

There is a reason they're 2/3 the price. What that reason is, is up the consumers interpretation or perception, IMO.

R

What machine did you get?

Kurt used to mark their boxes A,B,C for bed matching. When you asked for matched vises, the distributor would sort through the boxes and send ones that had the same letter.

They stopped doing that and just make them all the same height now. You don't have to ask for matched vises anymore with Kurt.

I bought 2 DX6's in earlier this year, paid under $500 ea. I would think buying 4, you should be able to get them for much less than $600 ea.

Generic Default said:

The 10 inch plate/flat bars will sit on parallels in each vise with the vise jaws removed (to get to 10 inches open).

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No opinion on Kurt vs Glycern - pure BS luck, but I have Gerardi's.

But the same concern should apply to either choice - a two-fold "hit" from gripping Aluminium directly in unlined CI jaws.

- First, Aluminium's oxides are superb abrasives. All wear will be applied to the "master jaw", not to an easily replaced component attached TO it.

- Second, if it was not already know to "many" it surely became more widely known when about a half-dozen automakers began producing Aluminium panels in earnest that even the least smear of Iron atoms from forming operations would screw-up coating and paint adhering to Aluminium, as a delayed-reaction "time-bomb", and at a rather expensive to deal with ultimate cost. Google"iron contamination" and VW, Audi, Ford, Jaguar, etc.

I'd suggest you go the extra mile to get AT LEAST a thin Aluminium (or maybe Aluminium-Bronze?) jaw "liner" in there between the workpiece and the naked CI master jaws.

You "might" even want to look at Chick vises. Not as cheap, even as a Kurt.

But AFAIK, their vises are made of Aluminium, not an alloy of Iron, to begin with.

2CW

I would get the Kurt. Or teco. I have teco vises and they are very nice. I was considering buying the dx6 but I wanted to match my other vise. I would also consider getting something like a double vise from orange or Kurt. Glacern has one too but I’d buy the shares copy instead.

thermite, that's an interesting point about iron contamination and wear. I use jaws when possible but I can't find any vises with a 10 inch opening. These flat bars need holes drilled through near the edges, otherwise I would just put the jaws on the backside of the fixed master. Does iron contamination affect regular aluminum anodizing? I don't plan on rubbing the flat bars against the jaws much, I just set them on top of the parallels and tighten the vise.

I can't go with double vises because they don't have a large enough capacity and I want at least one reference surface for accurate Z repeatability.

You can buy aluminum moveable jaws. Then you could drill right into them and you’d have more support underneath. They could also be swapped out with regular iron ones when you were done.

Just mount your jaws on the outside with a step. No need for anything special? I do lots of 12” plate all with through holes. That is a 16” plate with tons of through holes.


Edit:
You can see the step in the jaws better in this picture.


10” plate in the vise

Generic Default said:

thermite, that's an interesting point about iron contamination and wear.

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(Ford-era) Jaguar thought they'd side-stepped the iron contamination, having had sight of VW/Audi's prior costly warranty disaster. Lo and beHELD, but my 2005 XJ8-L just this summer started crinkling up near the rear window edge!



Affect Anodizing? Dunno. Contact with Iron or steel has to be more the rule than the exception, so nothing "new" here. Suspect it depends on the prep work.

Ask the anodizer. (S)he should know waaay more about that than I do.

As to the wear? Just keep in mind that per-each ONE Iron master jaw surface, there would be presented a stream of "many" NEW EACH GO oxide-at-contact-surface Aluminium parts. That overwhelming count of newcomers is like rocks, unable to hide, being worn away by sand in rushing water or grit carried on the wind.

As to "can't find" on large-opening vises?

THIS is why guys like me once had a damned good living. We designed and built bespoke jigs and fixtures INSTEAD OF general-purpose vises.

For the work you are doing in this tasking, it should be cheaper than vises as well.

I or YOU - could grab a slab of Aluminium-alloy bed plate and gin up a reference rail and movable rail with a manual rapid clamping system for about the price of ONE Glacern vise, even at top shop rates. Locking toggles, cams, and more are stock items to that trade. We kept bins of 'em stocked.

You have a dirt-simple drilling task, at least one reliable edge on the "incoming" material to align on, and not a massive amount of unpredictable stresses, yah?

Even remote-commanded AIR clamping could be done for less than the price of FOUR vises.

Throughput? Reduced cycle-time is "in the plan" when you do fixtures.

Should be enough faster than messing with four separate vise handles to add to fast cost recovery.

Don't add to your "vices", sinner!

Be a righteous person and "fixture" this task.

Generic Default said:

I use jaws when possible but I can't find any vises with a 10 inch opening.

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On the DX6, 9.08 with hard jaws.. A tick over 10.5 without jaws... You can get something in there..
Hint: it can even go over the top of the vise.

A "JAW" doesn't have to look exactly like the hard jaw that comes with the vise.. You're a fricken
machinist, you can do any damn thing you want..

Outboard isn't bad, I try not to do that unless I have to.. And I've done some horrible things
with outboard jaws.. The worst part of doing that, is you have no support underneath, at least on
the backside, though you could step them so they register off the top of the vise...


A million ways, a vise is just a "Clamp" that you can bolt some stuff to to help you hold more stuff,
nothing more, nothing less. I've even used a D688 as a press brake.

Generic Default said:

thermite, that's an interesting point about iron contamination and wear. I use jaws when possible but I can't find any vises with a 10 inch opening. These flat bars need holes drilled through near the edges, otherwise I would just put the jaws on the backside of the fixed master.

Click to expand...

Never Milled steps in jaws? Just put the counterbores on the opposite side from normal, you can still put them on the backside.

R

I don’t think you need a fixture for these parts when a vise can do a thousand other things. Anyways I make parts in steel jaws and get them anodized and there is no issue. But if you think there is just use aluminum jaws like I showed. I recommend you get some 8” or 10” wide soft jaws though to hold your part more securely I had some chatter issues with large parts and if you look at my photo you can see I put a couple of 2x4 wedged in the center of that huge part to prevent chatter.

thermite,

Thanks for posting those pictures. I think the step jaw system would be doable for my wider parts. With a small gap above the fixed jaw block and 135 degree drills, I don't think I would be poking the hard iron by accident. I have a variety of parts to make, and for long-term process reliability I planned on aligning the 4 vises on the table one time to near perfection, then building jigs and fixtures for each vise for smaller parts. The larger parts are geometrically simple and can be clamped on both sides like in your photos above. I'll build the jigs for the parts that really benefit from them.

Before this thread goes on a political tangent, I'd like to know the flatness of the GMT vises and the flatness of the Kurt vises, since those are still the most likely candidates. For anyone using those vises, have you ever had any problems with clamping power, slight bed height mismatches, lifting, or anything else?


EDIT:

The main reason for starting this thread is that GMT says their vises are cast and machined here in the US, but another thread says otherwise. I don't know if the guy at GMT straight up lied to me on the phone, which is why I want to verify the quality with users here.

Generic Default said:

thermite,

Thanks for posting those pictures.

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those were Ianagos, not mine. But mea culpa.. I'd ass u me 'ed that you already KNEW how to "fixture" a vise.

Which is a whole skillset of great value, even on a woodworker's vise or a common bench vise. Also made easier by goods such as the Gerardi's I'm growing fond of.

"Modular" vises are meant to have a good deal more built-in flexibility as to those options. And they do.



Back to the Kurt vs Glycern? I don't think Kurt is "magical", but they DO have more product over longer years "out there", and are favoured and recommended by most users. They ALSO have a good track-record as to rebuild-ability, spare parts, and holding a decent residual value if sold-off, used.

Up to me, if Glycern is go-fetch close? I'd mosey over, buy ONE and "real quickly" go and abuse the piss out of it and see what I thought, personally, before buying four of either. It dasn't have to be "better" than a Kurt. Only has to be good enough for what you need it to do for YOU.

A vise is something you use a lot and its something you only have to buy once if you get a good product the first time ... I have 20+ Kurt vises in the shop and like them ,, some date back about 35 years and still work as good as new ... "BUT" if I had to do it all over i would buy Orange Vises in that I like how they do single / double or pallet all on the same vise ,,, yes there more money but when its something you use all the time the extra cost goes away fast ...

I have no direct input on the Glycern vises but I well say I have had some china vises in the shop and non have lasted long ...

We bought some Glacern brand many (8-10?) years ago. Broke fixed jaw on one of them* and the other was just not all the nice in feel.

*Our tool guy at the time replaced it at no charge, not sure if 'he' did or Glacern did.

@lanagos demostrated wide plates well.

Orange vise used to list a kind of L-shape jaw that would allow long reach (but I don't see those on current site.)
Note that their current web site lists bases (things you would add carriers and jaws to) up to 26" - so of course you could grab a plate 12" wide with any reasonable master/top jaw combo. But see lanagos's post again....

I have 11 GMT GPV615-R vises. They have performed reliably over the last 5 years of heavy use.
The bed-heights are all within a few tenths. They repeat as well as any Kurt. I cant really imagine how a Kurt 3610V could do anything better?
My only complaints would be: major casting flash in the center through holes for bolting the vise down (which I actually use, unlike most).
And, a few had some minor core-shift in this same area. Did not affect the function of the vise. But, it did cost me hours with the die-grinder before I could use them.
But! When I bought my GMT vises, they were only $400 vs. the $600 they are now. Would I pay $600 for the exact same vise just a few short years later?
Hell no!

I have used my fair share of Kurts as well. I would probably go Kurt, and do whatever I had to do to get the best deal, for a single station, that wasnt a Chick one-lok.
My MSC rep was able to knock a huge percentage of the Kurt price when I was shopping for 10 double-stations 1.5yrs ago.
But, I have used Kurt doubles before. Garbage would have been an upgrade. I went a diff. route (not GMT!)

Generic Default said:

.... Does iron contamination affect regular aluminum anodizing?

Click to expand...

The typical anodizing process includes a caustic etch dip. It will remove any iron. If you have high polished parts then your anodizer can do a no etch anodize. Then, part cleanliness is up to you.