Ladder Logic - Citizen Cincom F12

I have a Dinosaur of a Swiss that I am trying to bring back to life.
It is a Citizen Cincom F12 with a Fanuc 3T control.

It is going to need a new VFD for the spindle, but at this point I am running into another problem.

I can jog the machine around fine with the joystick, but I have to overwrite the "RDYS" bit to "1" in diagnostics to to anything in MDI.


I went through the manual tracing the ladder logic, and it seems that bit "CNT" needs to = "1", leads to "CNTD" to = "1" for "RDYS" to ="1":




This is the rung that I am not understanding.
When I display the bits for "CNTS" & "TCNT" in diagnostics, they both read "1".
Shouldn't that cause the "CNT" bit to be "1"?
I tried manually writing the "CNT" bit to 1, but I am not able to like I am the "RDYS" bit.
Am I overlooking something in this ladder diagram?

what exactly are your trying to do in MDI. if your spindle drive is shot (you said you need a new VFD ) Most things wont work in MDI if you dont have a rdy signal from the spindle drive.
Dale on the board has a f16 with a 3t he learned alot on his f16.(its the exact same machine but with a 16mm spindle )he might chime in as he learned the hard way like a few of us.
I have a f12 with a 3T also, its not hooked up(need a few parts)
I also have a running f12 with a 10t control that kicks ass.

was the machine ever running in your possesion? Did you loose your Parmeters?
Citizen has all the Prms for older machines, they are easy to deal with. you just need your serial number. OKI moved from the main plant to chicago I believe. he is extreamly hard to get ahold of. couple other guys over there are a great help.

Per your pictures of the hardcopy ladder, if CNTS is 1 and TCNT is 1 then CNT should be 1. Since CNT is still 0, I think that your hardcopy ladder and the ladder loaded in the control do not match and there is an additional condition on the CNT rung that is not true.

Usually there will be a version number on the ladder hardcopy. Most builders label the PLC ROMs with the matching number. Can you identify any of that and see if they match?

Delw said:

what exactly are your trying to do in MDI. if your spindle drive is shot (you said you need a new VFD ) Most things wont work in MDI if you dont have a rdy signal from the spindle drive.
Dale on the board has a f16 with a 3t he learned alot on his f16.(its the exact same machine but with a 16mm spindle )he might chime in as he learned the hard way like a few of us.
I have a f12 with a 3T also, its not hooked up(need a few parts)
I also have a running f12 with a 10t control that kicks ass.

was the machine ever running in your possesion? Did you loose your Parmeters?
Citizen has all the Prms for older machines, they are easy to deal with. you just need your serial number. OKI moved from the main plant to chicago I believe. he is extreamly hard to get ahold of. couple other guys over there are a great help.

Click to expand...

The machine was never running in my possession.
My brother was running it in a few months ago and making good parts on it at his previous job before the spindle drive failed.
I have a hard copy of the parameter list, and the values stored in the machine match.


I was mainly trying to see if I could index the turrets before I spent the $ on the new drive.
I am able to do G00 X & Z in MDI if I overwrite the RDYS bit, but there is additional logic for a tool index that relies on CNT and CNTD to be 1.

Yaskawa is recommending the G500 drive G50U2021ABA for a retrofit.

Link to VFD thread here:
Citizen Cincom F12 3 Phase Power

LIFTED said:

The machine was never running in my possession.
My brother was running it in a few months ago and making good parts on it at his previous job before the spindle drive failed.
I have a hard copy of the parameter list, and the values stored in the machine match.


I was mainly trying to see if I could index the turrets before I spent the $ on the new drive.
I am able to do G00 X & Z in MDI if I overwrite the RDYS bit, but there is additional logic for a tool index that relies on CNT and CNTD to be 1.

Yaskawa is recommending the G500 drive G50U2021ABA for a retrofit.

Link to VFD thread here:
Citizen Cincom F12 3 Phase Power

Click to expand...

if you take the machine to almost X home then try it on your bottom turret ir T1300; cycle start. for the top turret take the x axis way high and do it. you should ahve indicator lights on what turret you can turn at what position in your x
you do have to take it home in X and Z 1st before you can turn the turret at least mine you do.

if you have a turret number out of position alarm you find out what tool the turret its on them type in that number hit soft key(green) start then reset.(again must clear the x axis to either side.) I would do both turrets. Im not sure of the 3t shows that alarm or not the 10t does

the other thing is the older citizens are known to have a pin in the turret release stick if they set very long. it will cause a fault also

Yes,

Here is what I've tried a few times.

Home out X & Z:



Jogged to T1 change position in X:


Punch in a tool change from T1100 to T1300, after manually setting the RDYS bit +1:


After hitting the start key, nothing happens.
So I'll input a T1100 again, and I get a "NOT READY" message on the CRT and the T1/T2 red indicators light up along with both "!" warning lights:


At this point I am thinking it may have something to do with the VFD for the spindle not being hooked up.
Although, I am getting Zero pressure on the hydraulic gauges, even though I can here the pump motor running.



Is there an way to get access to the shot pin to try and manually release it?

LIFTED said:

.......Although, I am getting Zero pressure on the hydraulic gauges, even though I can here the pump motor running......

Click to expand...

Pump running the correct rotation direction?

LIFTED said:

Yes,

Here is what I've tried a few times.

Home out X & Z:

Jogged to T1 change position in X:

Punch in a tool change from T1100 to T1300, after manually setting the RDYS bit +1:

After hitting the start key, nothing happens.
So I'll input a T1100 again, and I get a "NOT READY" message on the CRT and the T1/T2 red indicators light up along with both "!" warning lights:

At this point I am thinking it may have something to do with the VFD for the spindle not being hooked up.
Although, I am getting Zero pressure on the hydraulic gauges, even though I can here the pump motor running.

Is there an way to get access to the shot pin to try and manually release it?

Click to expand...

Vancbiker said:

Pump running the correct rotation direction?

Click to expand...

Double check what Vancbiker is saying 1st. maybe your not phased correctly?
if your pump motors on then you should be getting pressure is you phased it correctly.
if it is phased correctly and you have no pressure. start checking the valve assembly in the back. your pumps have to have pressure in order to turn the turrets.
hopefully you have the electrical and hydraulic prints. There is also a Fuse and Relay panel in the back of the control behind the crt. check all those fuses. I had one blow out and my turrets wouldnt change tools( I never checked my pressure however). I think if was the 4th fuse from the left but thats on a 10t.

below the bottom turrret there is a plate just behind the turret O.D. they hold all the electrical switchs. I think there is 3. Thats what I thought my problem was cause I couldnt find a relay/fuse panel to see if I was getting power or had a broken wire. just the typical ones in the rear cabinet. when I called Citizen they said check the relay/fuse panel but no one new where it was . as they didnt know the machine and the guys that did were out on call. so I just started looking. popped the crt cabinet open and saw nothing, but a sheet metal cover, took that off and there was about 15-20 fuses and 20-40 relays in there. well I'll be damned.

I have notes in my book written down how to fix the pin issue. you dont have to take anything apart. if I get time I will try to pull it out. but it will be later on in the evening or during the weekend.
The guys I bought the machine from have every single fix documented and every how to so there on site mechanic could fix it.

Heres your pic from the other thread. I put an arrow on where the switchs should be. min is just a flat cover you have a box.

Yup, the hydraulic motor was running in the wrong direction.

Swapped 2 wires, and can index both turrets no problem now - no flipping bits in diagnostics:

Turret 1

Turret 2

Hopefully I didn't run the motor in the wrong direction for too long...
Time to get the new VFD on order.

Great that was an easy fix!

Thank you both for the help.

On another note - what is this thing?
Some type of parts catcher?
It looks extremely wore and bent...

New VFD installed:

LIFTED said:

Thank you both for the help.

On another note - what is this thing?
Some type of parts catcher?
It looks extremely wore and bent...

Click to expand...

It looks like it could be a place to attach a support that is activated by an M-code. For a long skinny turning job or while parting off.

A couple of test parts just to get familiar with the setup/controls/programming:

Cool, glad to see you got this up and running,